Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by Hermes Serpent

This social status problem is a mystery to me. As an older gamer from the UK (roughly contemporary with Chirine) I have very little difficulty in understanding how this works as it's very much the norm in class-ridden British society prior to the Great War. Even up till the Fifties when I was born there was very much a social stratification of the population. Having been married to a Californian and lived in the US for a number of years I can see that the social structure of the US is very much a determinant in people not understanding how this sort of thing works. The insularity of most Americans works against them when it comes to understanding a lot of things like very different social structures that are outside their normal frame of reference. People that travel outside their cultural norm are much more likely to have some experience of different situations that allows them to see things in a different way. -snip-

With me as well. Even though I was not raised in such a society, and really have no first hand experience with one, it doesn't require much to imagine what living in one must be like. I think if a prospective player or GM took a few minutes to look at the Tekumel website, and read a cursory explanation of caste based societies, such as this wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste, they would have more than enough background information for a general understanding of how Tekumel works.
Beisdes, no one says that games must specifically be set in Jakalla or some other Tsolyani city. There is a lot of wilderness where you could set a game and not have to worry about any societal proscriptions regarding interaction or advancement. I've done this quite successfully in the past in my game.

Shemek

Originally Posted by Baron Opal

Inept evil, perhaps.

What struck me most about the cults of Stability and Change, is that they both want / need a functioning society. The mortals need it, at the least. And the gods are willing to tolerate it as it is the chessboard upon which their game is played.

Certainly, there are grim rituals of the Dark. And, there are fewer consequences in using a random peasant when enacting the Second Appeasment of the Cupric Sentinel. Really, who will miss them? But, if they are not slaves or clanless, you have a lot of bother that can be distracting; paperwork, weregild, and the like. And, you really don't want a band of adventurers breaking into your sanctum while invoking the Cacophanous Harmony of Vourhana. I mean, tentacles everywhere. That isn't good for anybody.

Indeed! Besides, I'm sure you can appreciate how difficult it is to clean up all the spilled ichor... For some reason the slaves really have an aversion to the stuff.

Shemek

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Same here, on reflection.-(snip)- Maybe it's a cultural thing? Looking back on it, we didn't have this issue with the Aussies, Europeans, and UK people that we talked to; it seems to be US players who seem to have the big issues with clans and social conduct. We learned very early on -(snip)-

What about Canadians? Did you find that they were "ok" with it given Canada's traditional ties to the UK, and its multicultural nature.

Shemek

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

-(snip)-
I still don't think one needs to study in detail before one can play; I still think that a copy of EPT and some imagination will do just fine. I should note that I feel that way about all the rules and world-settings I've played in, from Ancients to Science-fiction. I still think it helps facilitate the game if one knows something about the genre one wants to play in, though, as it might save one from later 'buyer remorse'. -(snip)-

I agree and if I might add, as I said in an earlier post, the Tekumel website for some extra background info and visuals.

Shemek

Originally Posted by Greentongue

With the original presentation of Good & Evil, wouldn't that be expected from "Evil"?
=

Not by anybody over the age of 12. Just as "Good is not Stupid," "Evil is not a sadistic child." q.v. Baron Harkonnen in the book version of "Dune" versus the flying pustule of the movie.

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

This is kind of how I feel about it, but the same attitude also prevails in the games that I've run in other campaign settings. As I tell my players they can do whatever they like in the game, I won't mandate a particular behavioural pattern, but there are always repercussions, both bad and good. This is why I never bought the notion of the absolutely rigid and inflexible social strata for Tekumel. You and Chirine are prime examples that this is B.S. Detractors of, and those reluctant to play in Tekumel often point to this, along with a perceived dogmatic requirement that one must be fluent in the background minutiae in order to successfully "play Tekumel," or even start a game. Why should such a developed background setting be so inflexible that it would take an anthropologist or linguist to run it, when this runs contrary to the intention of the creator of the world, and contradicts his admonition that one should make Tekumel their own? I don't get it, and this is why i usually don't get into discussions about the ease or viability of running a campaign in Tekumel. All I know is that I have run campaigns on Tekumel for a long time, and there has never been an issue introducing players into the setting who have never heard of it before.

Shemek

As I said in the other Tekumel thread, the only thing more popular than delighting in Tekumel as a game where you have to learn all kinds of esoteric bullshit to play, is slagging off on Tekumel as a game where you have to learn all kinds of esoteric bullshit to play.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Not by anybody over the age of 12. Just as "Good is not Stupid," "Evil is not a sadistic child." q.v. Baron Harkonnen in the book version of "Dune" versus the flying pustule of the movie.

David Lynch seems(ed) enamored with trying to depict evil simply and visually rather than going to the time and trouble to show us a character is evil via their choices and actions. Its one of the things I dislike about Lynch as a film maker.

Looking at Man of Gold, it depicts people who are willing to...

• assassinate anyone who gets in their way
• pursue personal gain at the expense of others
• commit poisonings, torture, and human sacrifice on a large scale if need be
• consort with demons and creatures of the dark

...yet not be the kind of lower, brutish evildoer who gets off on hurting or belittling others as a way of ingratiating themselves, in fact such people seem to be looked on with disdain.

Chirine:

I saw it mentioned that you had a Tekumel movie list, and it seemed that you used one movie to get players into the spirit of it. Would you mind sharing that list at some point?

gracias