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-------- TML Message #752 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 752
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!reed.UUCP!oresoft.uu.net!richard@tektronix.TEK.COM (Richard The Writer)
Subject: Galactic scale
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 89 10:11:45 PDT


I found this in sci.physics and thought it would be of *enormous*
interest, especially to those who are contemplating maps...
	Richard

- --------------------------------
Subject: Relative distances and sizes in the Universe.

        Several weeks ago I posted a request for slide sets comparing the 
    relative distances in the solar system and the other stars:  It would 
    seem that slide sets of this scale system are rather hard to come by.  
    I sent out a request to several other computer networks, along with 
    calling a number of planetariums, museum stores, and searched through 
    various scientific catalogues, all without significant result.  

        I was able to use my resources and gather some information
    from several friends on various types of relative celestial scales, 
    and have come up with some relevant information.

        The first selection depicts the solar system on a major league
    baseball field from E. C. Slipher's "Planet" section of THE WORLD BOOK
    ENCYCLOPEDIA P, VOLUME 15, Field Enterprises Educational Corporation,
    Chicago, Illinois, 1964.  If the Sun were the size of a United States 
    half-dollar (fifty cents) on home plate, the planet Mercury would be 
    120 centimeters (four feet) away, Venus would be 225 centimeters
    (7.5 feet) away, Earth would be 315 centimeters (10.5 feet) distant,
    Mars would be 480 centimeters (sixteen feet) away, Jupiter would be
    1,650 centimeters (55 feet) from the Sun (at the pitcher's mound),
    Saturn would be 3,030 centimeters (101 feet) away (near second base, 
    and the last planet in the infield), Uranus would be 6,075 centimeters
    (202.5 feet) away, Neptune would be 9,540 centimeters (318 feet) away,  
    and Pluto would be 12,615 centimeters (420.5 feet) distant from the 
    Sun, deep in the outfield.

        To compare planetary diameters, if the Sun were the size of an 
    average beachball, then Jupiter would be a golf ball, Saturn a Ping-
    Pong ball, Uranus and Neptune marbles, Mercury and Pluto pinheads, 
    and Venus, Earth, and Mars would be about half the size of tackheads.

        The next comparison scale comes from the "Life on Other Worlds" 
    section of Carl Sagan's PLANETS, LIFE Science Library, 1966.  This
    one depicts the solar system on a map of Europe and Africa, with the 
    average distance between the Sun and Earth, 150 million kilometers 
    (93 million miles) - also known as one Astronomical Unit (A.U.) -
    now equaling 240 kilometers (150 miles).  If the Sun were situated 
    in Norway, Saturn would orbit just south of Italy, and Pluto would 
    be 10,400 kilometers (6,500 miles) away along the Cape of Good Hope 
    in South Africa.

        The next source on various celestial scales comes from THE
    STARFLIGHT HANDBOOK: A PIONEER'S GUIDE TO INTERSTELLAR TRAVEL, by
    Eugene F. Mallove and Gregory L. Matloff (John Wiley & Sons, Inc., New
    York, 1989, ISBN 0-471-61912-4, hardcover), which gives the following
    description on page 5:  If the Sun were the size of a one-centimeter
    (0.4-inch) marble, then Earth would be 0.1 millimeters (0.004 inches)
    in diameter and one meter (39.37 inches) from the Sun.  The planet
    Pluto would orbit 42 meters (139 feet) from the Sun, and Proxima
    Centauri - the Sun's nearest stellar neighbor - would be 292
    kilometers (175 miles) away. 

        The next two books listed are both authored by Neil McAleer.
    The first is THE COSMIC MIND-BOGGLING BOOK (Warner Books, Inc.,
    New York, 1982, ISBN 0-446-37932-8, paperback).  On the front cover 
    of the book, the following comparison is made (one of my favorites,
    from an aesthetic point of view):  If the solar system out to the
    orbit of Pluto could fit in a coffee cup, the Milky Way Galaxy
    would be the size of the North American continent.

        On page xiii - If you had a specially-designed automobile
    which could handle the rigors of spaceflight, it would take you
    201 billion years to "drive" from the Sun to the center of the
    Milky Way Galaxy at 161 kilometers per hour (100 miles per hour).
    Also, if the solar system were 2.54 centimeters (one inch) across, 
    the Milky Way Galaxy would be 161,000 kilometers (100,000 miles) wide.

        On pages 3-4 - If the Sun were the size of a sixty-centimeter
    (two-foot) beachball, Earth would be the size of a pea and 6,450
    centimeters (215 feet) away.  The planet Jupiter would be a large
    orange 31,680 centimeters (1,056 feet) distant from the Sun.

        On pages 12-13 - If the Sun were a 14-centimeter (5-inch) orange, 
    Earth would be a sesame seed fifteen meters (49 feet) away.  Pluto
    would be the size of a grain of millet six hundred meters (3,400
    feet) away, and the star Alpha Centauri would be four thousand 
    kilometers (2,500 miles) from the Sun.

        On page 83 - If you could fly a specially modified Boeing 747
    jetliner through space at 965 kilometers per hour (six hundred miles
    per hour), it would take you 1,903 years to fly from the orbit of
    the planet Uranus out to the orbit of Neptune.    

        On page 128 - If the Sun were a basketball in New York City, 
    then Alpha Centauri would be another basketball eight thousand
    kilometers (five thousand miles) away in Honolulu, Hawaii.

        On page 129 - If you traveled at the speed which the APOLLO
    spacecraft used in an average six-day round-trip journey to Earth's 
    Moon (approximately 40,000 kilometers per hour/25,000 miles per hour), 
    it would take you 850,000 years to reach Alpha Centauri.  By contrast, 
    the faster PIONEER 10 and 11 and VOYAGER 1 and 2 Jovian probes will 
    reach that distance (4.3 light years) in only eighty thousand years.

        On page 161 - If you used a starship traveling at one-tenth the 
    speed of light (300,000 kilometers per second/186,000 miles per second)
    to reach the farthest star in the Milky Way Galaxy, the ship would
    take 800,000 years to reach it from the Sun.  If one Astronomical 
    Unit (A.U.) - the distance between the Sun and Earth, which is 
    roughly 150 million kilometers/93 million miles - were reduced to 
    2.54 centimeters (one inch), then that farthest star would be
    127,000 kilometers (79,000 miles) away.

        The next selection is from the other Neil McAleer book, THE 
    MIND-BOGGLING UNIVERSE (Doubleday & Co. Inc., Garden City, New 
    York, 1987, ISBN 0-385-23039-7, paperback):

        On pages 10-11 - If the solar system out to Pluto were 2.54 
    centimeters (one inch) in diameter, then the center of the Milky
    Way Galaxy would be 609 kilometers (379 miles) away.  Also, to
    walk one A.U. at five kilometers per hour (three miles per hour)
    would take 3,500 years.  To drive one light year at 88 kilometers
    per hour (55 miles per hour) would take 12.2 million years.

        On page 15 - The Milky Way Galaxy's longest spiral arm of gas, 
    dust, and stars is 125,000 light years long.  It would take an
    automobile driving at 88 kilometers per hour (55 miles per hour)
    1.5 trillion years to cover that distance. 

        On page 35 - An automobile driving at 88 kph (55 mph) would
    take 52 million years to reach Proxima Centauri from the Sun.

        The next selection comes from THE UNIVERSE...AND BEYOND by 
    Terence Dickinson (Camden House Publishing, Ltd., Camden East,
    Ontario, Canada, 1986, ISBN 0-920656-48-X, paperback):

        On pages 16-19 - If the actual distance between the Milky Way 
    Galaxy and the Andromeda Galaxy (two million light years) were shrunk 
    to a typical book-reading distance, then the most remote galaxies
    known would be 1.6 kilometers (one mile) away.

        If the Sun were shrunk to the size of a 2.54-centimeter (one 
    inch) Ping-Pong ball, Earth would become a dust speck 240 centimeters 
    (eight feet) away, with the Moon being an even smaller speck just
    6.25 millimeters (0.25-inch) from Earth.  Jupiter would be a pea 
    1,200 centimeters (forty feet) from the Sun, and Pluto is a dust
    speck nine thousand centimeters (three hundred feet) away.  The
    Oort Cloud of comets surrounding our solar system would be the 
    size of atomic particles and reside several kilometers distant,
    with the comets themselves averaging several meters apart from
    each other.  The Alpha Centauri trinary star system would consist
    of two walnuts (Alpha and Beta) and a pea (Proxima) 640 kilometers
    (four hundred miles) from our solar system.

        If Earth's solar orbit were reduced to the size of a United
    States dime, the average distance between stars is now a little 
    over one kilometer (1.6 miles).  The Milky Way Galaxy would be
    the actual size of Earth.  The distance to the Andromeda Galaxy 
    would be over half the actual distance between Earth and the Moon.

        If you could hold the Milky Way Galaxy in your hand, the stars
    in it would be sub-atomic in size, and the Andromeda Galaxy would
    be 210 centimeters (seven feet) away.

        My final textbook selection comes from CYCLES OF FIRE, by 
    William K. Hartmann and Ron Miller (Workman Publishing, New York,
    1987, ISBN 0-89480-502-9, paperback):

        On pages 14-15 - If Earth were the diameter of a microparticle
    of soot, then the Sun would be one hundred times larger, the size
    of a mote of dust, or one hundredth of a millimeter across.  The
    solar system would be the size of a saucer, and the Oort Cloud of
    comets would exist several house lots away.  Alpha Centauri would
    be another dust mote one to two city blocks from the Sun, and the
    Milky Way Galaxy would be the size of North America.  Some of the
    other nearby galaxies would be the varying sizes and distances of
    Earth's continents.  The known limits of the Universe would stretch
    halfway across the solar system.

        My friend and co-worker Drew LePage came up with some various
    calculations on the celestial distance scale:

        If the orbit of Pluto were the size of a U.S. dime, this would be
    the size of various distances in the Universe: 
    
    	Earth's orbit would have a diameter of about 0.5 millimeter (about 
    half the thickness of a dime).
    
    	One light year would be about 15.2 meters (49.9 feet).
    
    	One parsec (3.26 light years) would be about 49.7 meters (163 feet).
    
    	The closest star would be 65.4 meters (214 feet) away.
    
    	The closest one hundred known stars would be inside a sphere about 
    640 meters (2,100 feet) across.
    
    	The Sun would be 456 kilometers (283 miles) from the center of the 
    Milky Way Galaxy.
    
    	The Milky Way Galaxy would be 1,520 kilometers (945 miles) across.
    
        To put intergalatic distances into perspective, if the Milky Way
    Galaxy were the size of a dime:
    
    	The orbit of Pluto would be about the size of a hydrogen atom.

    	The Andromeda Galaxy would be 41.8 centimeters (16.5 inches) away.

    	One megaparsec would equal 61.9 centimeters (2.03 feet).
            
        The recently discovered "Wall" of Galaxies would be about 40 meters 
    (125 feet) to 60 meters (190 feet) away, about 3 meters (10 feet) thick, 
    and extend for at least 100 meters (300 feet). 
    
    	The most distant quasar known would be about 2.6 kilometers 
    (1.7 miles) away.
    
        The size of the observable Universe would be about 5.7 kilometers
    (3.5 miles) across. 

        If nothing else, these figures should give some idea as to just
     how incredibly vast the known Universe is.

        Larry Klaes  klaes@wrksys.dec.com
		     or - ...!decwrl!wrksys.dec.com!klaes
    		     or - klaes%wrksys.dec@decwrl.dec.com
                     or - klaes@wrksys.enet.dec.com
                     or - klaes%wrksys.enet.dec.com@uunet.uu.net

             N = R*fgfpneflfifaL
      

- --------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Relative distances and sizes in the Universe.

In article <8912121730.AA22210@decwrl.dec.com> klaes@wrksys.dec.com
(CUP/ASG, MLO5-2/G1 6A, 223-3283  12-Dec-1989 1233) writes:
>    If the solar system out to the
>    orbit of Pluto could fit in a coffee cup, the Milky Way Galaxy
>    would be the size of the North American continent.
>
>    Also, if the solar system were 2.54 centimeters (one inch) across, 
>    the Milky Way Galaxy would be 161,000 kilometers (100,000 miles) wide.

These two don't jibe.  One inch is smaller than a coffee cup, but 161,000
km is definitely larger than North America.  The proper ratios (using 4.2
light hours and 100,000 light years) is one to about 200 million, and 208
million inches is 3156 miles, so the coffe cup vs North America analogy is
the "correct" one.  The ratio of 1 inch to 100,000 miles is about the ratio
of the *Earth's* orbit to the Galaxy.

	Other than that, the article was fascinating.  I've often tried
to convey to friends the vastness of the solar system alone, and then
the galaxy... and the Universe... Some of the analogies wowed me yet again.
Gosh, this is a BIG place.

- -- 
The 'C' programming language is, at worst, the second best language for any
given application.  Usually, however, it is the best.  --  anon

Wayne Hayes	INTERNET: wayne@csri.toronto.edu	CompuServe: 72401,3525



-------- TML Message #753 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 753
From: (Bertil Jonell) d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: How long can your fleet endure?
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 89 9:52:25 MET DST


Richard Johnson writes:
> 	[About resupply during Carrier operations]

About resupply in Traveller Naval Operations:

This would be a major problem in extended naval operations ranging over
a Sector or more. It is alleviated somewhat by the use of pure-energy
weapons whose only reqirements are power from the powerplant (and in some
cases: hydrogen from the tanks). Hydrogen is free for taking at your
friendly neighbourhood gasgiant (in most cases). 
The trouble is the material munitions (missiles, sandcannisters etc). 
Those weapons is popular because they give more "Bang for the MegaWatts"
Their disadvantage is their limited ammo and the need to bring extra ammo
along. Supposedly on large, armored cargoships.
Other material things a fleet will need is spareparts, spare crew and
recharges for the life-support systems. Some of this can be carried on
the warships but the main part of the supplys will be stored on supplyships.
The supplyships will either follow the fleet or travel between it and a source
of supply (Naval Depot or Industrial world with TL 14+ can supply everything
a fleet need (except perhaps life-support recharges) but these can be found
on any Agricultural world regardless of TL).
If the supplyships are to follow the fleet there have to be a large number
of them to guarantee that the supplys will last until the next supplyrun
to a planet. This large number of ships is a tempting target and must be
protected.
If the method of continous supplys are adopted the major problem involves
finding the fleet. Information flows with the same speed as the fleet moves
(1 jump per week) so when the supplyships arrive they might find that the
fleet has been chased away and that the enemy now holds that system.
One approach to this problem is using predesignated meetingpoints that the
fleet will jump to to be supplyed. These points might not even be in systems,
they might just be coordinates in deep space. 

These problems with supply will lead to a preferrence for pure energy weapons
(Lasers, PA's, Fusionguns, Plasmaguns, Mesonguns, Disintegrators, Repulsors
and all kinds of screens) in forces that are not geared towards pure defence-
missions. Likewise a planetary invasion force will equipp themselves with 
as big proportion of laser and enery weapons and possible. The troops will
have lasers, FGMPs and PGMPs, and the vehicles will only use munitionusing
weapons in specific circumstances. (VRF GaussGuns).
The planetary defenders, on the other hand, may defend with every kind of
weapon imaginable: missiles, artillery, massdrivers, rocketlaunchers etc
*in addition* to the normal spectrum of weapons.

Planetary invasions are even more supplyconsuming than "pure" space battles.
There is a need for troops, landingcrafts, combat vehicles, recon drones,
decoys, weapons for the troops, ammo for all kinds of weapons, bombs for
defence supression, food for the troops, etc etc.
All this will require continous supplymission out of the system. Harrased
by hiding SDB's and Commerse Raiders and disturbed by the largescale fighting
that might still go on in the subsector.

All this condenses to: It's easier to defend than to attack.
The defender might have large stashes of supplys hidden beforehand in systems
and deep space while the attacker must bring everything with him. In any case
the defender will have shorter supplyruns than the attacker.
In the case of planetary sieges and invasions this advantage for the defender
is even more pronounced and will in some cases outweigh the tactical advantage
of "holding the high ground" that the attacker has.

> 	The AOEs were huge. THe main deck was at about the same level
> 	as the hanger deck, which made unrep a little easier. They were
> 	almost as long as the carrier. There were at least two fuel lines
> 	and four cargo lines between ships.  The AOE also had a helicopter
> 	pad aft and a hanger for two CH-46s (I'm not sure about the type,
> 	it had two rotors fore & aft). The helicopters would take the light
> 	stuff to the flight deck.

Supplyships will probably be very large. 50 000 tons and larger. If the fleet 
is forced to bring it's own fuel it would also contain several 1 000 000 tons
fleet tankers. Other supplyships that can be found in a fleet are big refinerys
that produces pure fuel for those ships that lack their own plants, And also
a mobile repaircenter of 500 000 tons that provides extra repair facilies.

> 	Mostly we took on bombs. After 2+ hours there would be bombs and
> 	bomb finn pallets everywhere; in the magazines (full), the mess decks,
> 	the hanger deck, and the starboard side of the island on the
> 	roof. 

I would imagine that a IMC Landingship or a IN Destroyer also would
look something like that at the start of a long mission. All available
space occupied by supplys. Ammo, spareparts and Liquid Oxygen bottles stacked
in all passageways, recreation rooms, and even in the cabins.

"Sarge, do I really have to have 200 kg of explosives stored under my bed?" :-)

- -bertil-
- -- 
Bertil K K Jonell @ Chalmers University of Technology, Gothenburg
NET: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se 
VOICE: +46 31 723971 / +46 300 61004     "Don't worry,I've got Pilot-7"
SNAILMAIL: Box 154,S-43900 Onsala,SWEDEN      (Famous last words)      
"And so for more than a decade Tiamat had been observing Lucifer with 
every possible kind of instrumentation" A.C.Clarke "2061: Odyssey Three"



-------- TML Message #754 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 754
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 89 20:43:34 EST
From: (Greg Givler - PA) givler@cbmvax.commodore.COM
Subject: Re: How long can your fleet endure?


Bertil K K Jonell writes:

>Supplyships will probably be very large. 50 000 tons and larger. If the fleet 
>is forced to bring it's own fuel it would also contain several 1 000 000 tons
>fleet tankers. Other supplyships that can be found in a fleet are big refinerys
>that produces pure fuel for those ships that lack their own plants, And also
>a mobile repaircenter of 500 000 tons that provides extra repair facilies.

I seem to remember that in Fifth Frontier War, although I haven't played it in 
years, that there was a provision for tankers. This was a necessity if you jump
into a system that does not have a Gas Giant to refuel at. Otherwise you were 
stuck in system until you conquered it, then you could refuel from the planet.

Greg

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Givler                        | Q-Link: GregGivler
Analyst - Systems Evaluation Group | CompuServe: Greg Givler 76702,647
Commodore Product Assurance        | GEnie: G.Givler
215-431-9100                       | The NET: givler@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Wild Whores couldn't keep me away!" -- George Fransisco
"That's Horses, George" -- Matt Sikes -- Alien Nation --  Fox Broadcasting --
===============================================================================




-------- TML Message #755 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 755
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 89 11:50:19 EST
From: ("Alvin M. Chan") ugachan@cs.buffalo.edu
Subject: a use for supplyships



If you have to bounce into a system to wage a planetary (or multi-planetary)
attack, then after you have a supplyship come in (possibly even of a size
small enought to service one ship, like a cruiser), then how about
DISMANTLING the supplyship and using it for spare parts, like the armor, the
electronics, etc.  The suppplyship would be built kind of modularly.

Other larger supply ships can warp in, then warp out when they are empty.

I dunno, I kinda of got the idea from reading "Common Denominator" by
David Lewis, in the October 1972 Analog.  I've read more sci-fi
in these mag/books than I ever read in paperback/hardcover/anthology form.
The amount of science facts (in the science columns) exceeds the amount of
knowledge I learned sitting through my physics and mechanics classes too!
Only problem is I guess I should be studying right now instead of reading
the fun stuff!

	- Alv

           Alvin M. Chan -- SUNY at Buffalo - Philosophy ==> Real Life
   +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
  / Internet: ugachan@cs.buffalo.edu     /     Bitnet: acscamc@ubvms.bitnet /
 +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+



-------- TML Message #756 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 756
From: (Adrian Hurt) adrian%cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
Subject: Re: How long can your fleet endure?
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 89 10:27:19 BST


One solution to the problem of re-supplying warships is the use of supply
ships which hide at some secret location.  In WW2, the German commerce
raiders did this.  Their supply ships were fast, armed tankers.  They
would be at a pre-arranged point, at a pre-arranged time.  One such point,
code-named "Andalusia", was used regularly.  The supply ships brought
ammo, foodstuffs and spare parts, and sometimes took away prisoners of war.

In a Traveller campaign, suitable places could include systems whose main
world is too low tech to be able to scan the whole system for intruders;
systems with no population; or empty hexes.  The last of these would, of
course, require two additional jumps to use, and would only really be of
use for transferring large quantities of ammo or spare parts.  Refuelling
really is only practical with tankers which accompany the fleet (as in the
board game "Fifth Frontier War"), from captured territory, or from gas
giants.  The boardgame says the system must contain no hostile, active
ships if you are to use the gas giant.  High Guard says that refuelling
while enemy ships are around is risky, which is why some ships stay outside
the gas giant to cover those ships refuelling - they are the High Guard.

Another source is raided enemy shipping.  One German warship, the "pocket
battleship" Admiral Scheer, captured a British refridgerator ship named
Duquesa.  The Scheer never went short of fresh food, especially eggs, for
the rest of the voyage!

Has anyone else considered making an adventure campaign out of the exploits
of a commerce raider?  I did so once, using FASA's Chameleon class raider.
The players came unstuck - they kept using the ship's missiles when they
could have just used its secondary weapons, lasers and particle accelerators.
When they ran into serious trouble, they were just about out of missiles!

Merry Christmas, everyone!

 "Keyboard? How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk



-------- TML Message #757 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 757
Subject: Re: How long can your fleet endure? 
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 89 11:37:31 PST
From: (Leonard Erickson) leonard@tessi.UUCP


Actually, as some of us pointed out during the discussion of "odball" objects
(black holes, brown dwarfs, etc) there may be a lot of stuff out in those
"empty" hexes. If a survey team can locate a comet-like object, that will
refuel a *lot* of ships. Figure the tonnage of a ball of ice (water, methane,
and ammonia) a few klicks across. 

The location of such covert refueling stations would be closely guarded as
while there are a lot of such iceballs out there, they are *not* easy to 
find. But what is it worth to you to have a refueling depot in interstellar
space? Better yet, what if it's a few light hours outside an enemy system?

In peacetime only covert operations would use these resources. In wartime
a skipper might open his sealed orders to find that he is to jump to some
location in empty space. After arriving, he'd be met by a pilot who'd take
the ship in. (If the crew is kept away from the nav readouts, only the pilot
knows how they got from the jump point to the fuel depot... paranoia pays!)




-------- TML Message #758 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 758
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 89 10:46:06 PST
From: gazis@halley.arc.nasa.gov
Subject: wheeze... gasp... endurance in the... pant pant... Eight Worlds...


[This came to traveller-request@dadla.wr.tek.com, looks like it was
meant for traveller@dadla.wr.tek.com.  Watch those automatic reply
headers.  BTW, enjoyable and very humorous article! Oh, and everyone
have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year (Yes, I'll still be kicking
around the mail spool over break) -- James]

ENDURANCE

     Mission endurance obviously depends on opperational level.
There are three levels of opperational activity; these levels
are common to ALL GAMES, not merely the Eight Worlds.  These
levels are as follows:

     1) Tactical.  The ship is engaged in actual combat; it is
under acceleration, weapons are being fired, shields (if any) are
up, sensors are active, crew is running from place to place in
an excited and agitated fashion as the ship crumbles to bits.
     2) Strategic.  The ship is not engaged in actual combat; it 
either on station or it is in transit in a fashion calulated to
maximize endurance, weapons are secured, shields (if any) are down, 
sensors are running in a passive mode, and the crew is cruising 
around looking for dates.
     3) Derelict.  The ships drifts, lifeless and inert, utterly
empty except for the evil power that destroyed it, which power
STILL WAITS to... but I digress.

     Intermediate opperational levels are certainly possible.  A 
vessel on blockade duty (or a carrier performing flight ops in
Southeast Asia) might occupy a level intermediate between Tactical
and Strategic.  My old MGB frequently occupied a level intermediate 
between Strategic and Derelict, which is three successive car thieves
were unable to make off with it.  Why, they wondered, didn't it start?
The fools, the cylinder head assembly on the passenger seat should 
have been a clue.  But again I digress... where was I... oh yes:

     All three of these opperational states are extremely important
in a Role Playing Game.
     Tactical endurance is a crucial aspect of combat.  PCs who do not 
know the combat endurance of their ship will routinely run out of fuel 
at inappropriate moments.  They will then die, to the dismay of their 
players, who will have to roll up new characters.  If this happens on a 
frequent basis, the players will have to roll their dice so many times
that the corners will wear off.  The dice will then tend to roll off the 
table and under the sofa, a frustrating occurance.
     Strategic endurance limits the range and duration of missions.  
PCs who exceed these limits will run out of fuel and die, to the dismay
of... but you've heard this already.
     Derelict endurance determines just how long wrecks can be expected
to last.  This is important because every self-respecting RPG has a few
derelict vessels which drift, dark, cold, Empty Except For The Evil Power,
Etc.  Many non-self-respecting RPGs will also contain such items.  If
adandoned ships generally fall out of orbit after a few years (or more
likely, drift off into deep space on hyperbolic trajectories on which 
they are unlikley to be found), then a truly ancient wreck is BIG NEWS.  
It is implausible.  The PC's may become suspicious.  They might well 
detect the Evil Power, Etc. before it is too late.  If, on the other hand,
ancient wrecks are commonplace, no one will ever bother to explore them.
In either situation, the Evil Power, Etc. that the GM has worked so long 
and hard to create will be wasted, a sorry fate.  For this reason, the
GM will wish to arrange matters so that ancient wrecks, while plausible, 
are also rare enough to be tantalizing.

     The situation in the Eight Worlds:
     The Eight Worlds, as I have suggested before, is an abysmally low
tech universe.  Even today, we can build spacecraft that in many 
respects are superior to those used in the Eight Worlds.  (They are also 
much more expensive and do not have hyperdrive.  These can only be 
considered to be flaws).
    The Tactical Endurance of Eight Worlds ships is measured in hours.
In order to economize on hours (a valuable substance), it is sometimes
even measured in fractions of an hour.  The chief reason for this 
limitation is fuel, which is consumed at a discouraging rate.  Another
reason is the crew, who tend to die, after which they can no longer
opperate the ship or repair damage.
     The Strategic Endurance of Eight Worlds ships is measured in days.
The superficial source of this limitation is the lifesystem: after a week 
or so, the air begins to smell bad, the output of the food machines is
indistinguishable from the input to the waste reprocessing facility,
and the walls become a garden to delight any connoiseur of fungii.  More
capable lifesystems are possible.  These are also prohibatively expensive
and do not address the more fundamental limitation of volume: Eight Worlds 
ships are very small, not much larger than a modern airliner.  Would YOU 
want to live aboard a modern airliner for more than a week?  If your 
answer is yes, go to the local video store, rent a copy of DAS BOOT, watch 
it, and think again.
     The Derelict Endurance of Eight Worlds ships is, of course, quite
long.  These ships are not going to evaporate, they are made out of nice
durable materials such as steel (Why not?  It's cheap and it doen't burn.
These are valuable characteristics.  Oh, there may also be an aeroshell
of some refractory material but this is a cosmetic item: it merely 
insures that the vessel does not become disfigured during re-entry).
On the other hand, they are not likely to remain where they can be
found.  Since most ship opperations (and all combat) are conducted at 
speeds greater than typical planetary escape velocities, derelicts
tend to spin off into interplanetary or interstellar space.  The
detection range of Eight Worlds sensors is a paltry 300,000 km or so.  
Interplanetary space is somewhat larger than this.

     The discerning individual will wonder why I chose such endurance
limits.  He or she will wonder on what physical justification these
limits are based.  The answer is simple:
     I am, of course, far to lazy and unimaginative to create a truly
civilization.  I therefore elected to take a historical civilization and 
transpose its culture and technology into SF terms.  But I did not wish 
to chose a well-known civilization lest my players exclaim, "My my, Gazis 
has based this culture on the aboriginal societies of Papua, New Guinea,"
and laugh at me.  Fortunately, I have long been fascinated by the
civilizations of the ancient Mediterranean.  These civilizations were
defined by their shipping, which shipping had important limitations. 
(These civilizations also were centered around self-sufficient city-states,
which are a good analogue for planetary states.)  It was a simple matter
to devise specific impulses, specific power outputs, and reactor 
efficiencies so that Eight Worlds shipping had analogous limitations.
     Unfortunately... I goofed.  There is another historical 
civilization which placed great importance on its navies, and possessed
ships with endurances such as I have described:
     European civilization at the turn of the century.  
     Space 1909.  Ick.

     The two messages are, as always:

     1) Opperating limitations, like every thing else in a game, should
be consitent with the kind of campaign the GM wants to run.  
     2) I forgot what the second message was

Cap'n Paul



-------- TML Message #759 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 759
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 89 12:18:05 -0500
From: (Mark Gellis) f3w@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Subject: Fleets, endurance, etc.



Interesting article from Paul and others prompted this commentary.
Please use any ideas you find interesting and/or suitable.

Strategic endurance on my spacecraft is limited by three factors: fuel,
life support, and power.  Life support is actually the least important
of the three.  My traveller world is set far in the future, and most
of the many alien races humans deal with are even older (like millions
of years) than humanity, which has only had a mere fifty thousand years
to perfect various technologies.  While I do assume some limits on
technology, I believe you could get microtechnology-biotechnology life
support units that could support humans pretty much for years if they
have power (I assume your basic recycler tank masses 500 kg. and uses
about 5 kilowatts and will work pretty much forever as long as you give
it fluids and solids and gases to recycle and power to help run things; 
it's basically an organism of sorts, producing water and foodbars, nothing
fancy.)

Power is not too much of a problem, either.  While a fusion generator
will run out of deuterium after a while, you can pack about two years 
worth into any power plant.  Probably more.  

Ah, but fuel, even in super-efficient systems like a fusion drive or 
a matter-antimatter drive, is the big problem.  Run out of fuel and
something very bad happens--you can't turn around!  You don't run out
of power and die (well, not for a while) but you do float off and have
to wait for someone to rescue you (someone will, spacecraft are valuable
enough that salvage teams can change outrageous fees for chasing after
people who have run out of fuel and need to be rescued).  Most spacecraft
carry between 400 and 800 G-hours of fuel (i.e., hours of fuel at one
gravity of thrust).  Now, even if you use jump drives, this means you
have to be careful.  In my game, where people have to use hypergates
(like Stargates in 2001; ships don't carry their own hyperdrives, they
have to go to a hypergate for interstellar transport), you have to be
very careful.

You also have to be careful about what you plan to do.  If you whiz by
an enemy fleet at a thouand klicks per second, relative speed, you'll get 
a few shots, but then they're gone and it will be quite some time before
you can slow down, turn around, and chase them!  So you need good 
intelligence to tell you where to navigate.  (Mind you, sometimes it's
better to do a fast hit-and-run ambush, but not always.)

I have never worried too much about tactical endurance, except for missiles
and chaff (anti-missile confuse-their-scanners junk).  Everything else is
energy weapons.  Waste heat is a problem, but unless both sides are commanded
by total boobs, one side has usually anihilated the other side within a few
minutes (like naval warfare today, spacecraft will probably carry weapons 
where the main gun is big enough to waste anything their own size in one or
two shots--the only exception being battleships which are so big that no 
one shot short of a nuclear blast can destroy the entire thing).

This leads to a new topic of discussion.  As I recall, the old Traveller
space combat tables are very slow.  I have developed a system which, in 
the words of one friend who plays in my game is "brutal, but fair, and 
pretty realistic."  Gaming combat time almost equals playing time, minute
for minute.  What do people think of the various space combat systems
they have encountered, developed, etc.?

Well, I've babbled enough.  Take care everyone, and have happy holidays!

    Mark



-------- TML Message #760 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 760
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 89 20:18:16 +0100
From: ("Hans Rancke-Madsen.") rancke@diku.dk
Subject: Type SN Scoutship


In White Dwarf #70 there is an article about bounty hunting as
a career in Traveller. Included is the floor-plans of a variant
scoutship especially equipped for bounty hunters. It's a very
nice, very professionally looking floorplan labeled "TYPE H
HUNTER (SN VARIANT)". The explanations, however, are in terms
of the differences from the standard model, and I've never seen
the plans for that! Does anyone know if these plans have been
published anywhere? There's a few issues in the twenties
missing from my White Dwarf collection, so that might be it.

The article was written by Diane and Richard John, and I think
they made the plans in it themselves, so probably they also did
the original plans, but I don't know for sure.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk

(And, yes, if this dosen't work, I'll try writing the Johns
care of White Dwarf).




-------- TML Message #761 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 761
From: (Adrian Hurt) adrian%cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
Subject: Type SN Scoutship
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 89 13:56:03 BST


Hans Rancke writes:

> In White Dwarf #70 there is an article about bounty hunting as
> a career in Traveller. Included is the floor-plans of a variant
> scoutship especially equipped for bounty hunters. It's a very
> nice, very professionally looking floorplan labeled "TYPE H
> HUNTER (SN VARIANT)". The explanations, however, are in terms
> of the differences from the standard model, and I've never seen
> the plans for that! Does anyone know if these plans have been
> published anywhere?

As so often happens, there are many standards!  If they're referring to their
own "standard" Type S, I can't help.  But a type S scout/courier is one of the
ships listed in the supplement "Traders and Gunboats".  This version doesn't
work without some changes to the plans; I know, I've built one.  For one thing,
they've left out such minor details as the power plant and the computer.  For
another, where they have put the cargo bay, there isn't room, due to the
tapering of the hull.  I put the forward undercarriage leg there instead, and
put the cargo bay just to port of the main engines.  The power plant now sits
in a little compartment just under the main engines.  I also enlarged the
bridge, and the computer and ship's locker now fit in there.

Happy Christmas, everyone!

 "Keyboard? How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk



-------- TML Message #762 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 762
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 89 16:03 EST
From: WRICKER@northeastern.edu



MegaT Tasks & GURPS

>  Scott Ellsworth   sellswor@jarthur.claremont.edu   SELLSWORTH@HMCVAX
>Archive-Message-Number: 742
>I was thinking of adapting the standard task system to the Gurps style rules, 
>then implementing most of the features of the travelller starships in gurps 
>terms and playing in the standard imperium. It could be very interesting.

Yes.  I paid the megaBucks for megaBox trav just to get the Tasks system,
and to bought the companion book just for the Insystem rules, to add to 
GURPS in general and GURPS Space respectively.

Haven't tried to integrate it yet, but it looks like it should work fine.

Wm ricker wricker@nuhub.acs.northeastern.edu wdr@wang.wang.com
see disclaimer in other article.  do not pass go.




-------- TML Message #763 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 763
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 89 16:06 EST
From: WRICKER@northeastern.edu


>  Scott Ellsworth   sellswor@jarthur.claremont.edu   SELLSWORTH@HMCVAX
>Archive-Message-Number: 742
>  Has anyone looked at Gurps Space?  I like the traveller universe and the
>"feel" of it, but I dislike the ways skills are handled, as well as the
>horrendously inefficient fusion/AM plants. 

I bought GURPS Space, because I'm using GURPS for a fantasy campaign,
and I thought to loan it to my Traveller GM.  If I ever run a space
game, I'd either use very variant traveller (see Redden & Gazis
postings) or GURPS Space, possibly a mutant mix.  Or N. Shapiro's Other Suns,
formerly pub'ed by FGU, soon to reappear as share-ware or something.  (See
USENET rec.games.frp discussion; if someone's interested, I might be able
to post a digest from my unix account -- send to wdr@wang.wang.com)

What follows is my review of GURPS Space, followed by a copy of the self
promotional back cover blurb  therefrom. 

GURPS Space is a generalization of GURPS Humanx: it gives several taxonomies
(Chinese menus) for building an SF campaign: pick your technological future.
They list multiple different ways around the FTL problem, and give hints
as to how each affects a campaign.  Also menued: How is your galaxy/cluster/
known space ruled?  (campaign type, with references!)  What sort of
people go adventuring?  How do you navigate in space?  Power? Commo?
Weaponry?  Design your own race.

Default energy density of power-cells looks less whacky than most systems.
Weapons span many traditions, GM should pick sublist based on above
choices, and weapon-legality in culture (like TRAV LAW level).  But much
better variety: eg, electromag mortar, tanglers, vibroblades; power
holster.  Likewise, Armor pans more sub-genre.

Starships are computed in cubic YARDS.  (*yech* I guess metrics haven't
reached texas, or SJ was afraid of putting off the innumerate brats who
buy games at the corner store.)  Sidebar says 200Tonner is slang for 200
cubic-yard hull, not to be confused with component mass, ship mass, etc
which are weights at 1G.  They figure loaded mass = light mass + rated
cargo mass.  Ship design looks simpler & saner than MegaTrav, and more
flexible than 3-book trav.  (I don't know the supplements, since my GMs
use the Gazoid system.)  Subsection: required crew, getting a ship
without buying it, reaction mass for trips of different lengths, STL
colony ships, GravTech, Auxiliary Craft (pretty skimpy). 

Ship to ship combat looks reasonable for an RPG; it is *not* a war-game sub
game (although one might claim the melee rules are).  They are very
similar to the GURPS Horseclans mass-battle rules, in terms of supply
ways for significant characters' skills to affect the larger battle and
the larger battle and character skills to affect the character's
survival etc.  
     Phases: 1. tactics. 2. Assign firepower & target selection, based
in part on tactics result. 3. Point defense gunnery (if using missiles).
4. Attack Gunnery (affected by 1,2,3) 5. Compute ship damage (direct
results of 4); PC's in areas taking damage must make survival rolls. 6.
Damage Control.
	If still in range, Go To Phase 1:, but ignore Plans unless
regrouping occurs; in which case consider it a new battle.
	When out of range, "each PC and important NPC must make a
survival roll". Heroism and Caution options allow PCs to tradeoff succes
and survival on damage control and some other tasks. Failure of a
survival roll doesn't kill automatically (as it would in TRAV roll-up,
but results in some number of dice of damage.

- ------
 
The back cover of GURPS Space: (quoted without permission for purposes
of review) 

"The Future is Yours!
"At last .. the star-spanning sourcebook for the /Generic Universal 
RolePlaying System/.  In the 128 pages of /GURPS Space/, you'll find:
"* Detailed, scientifically correct rules for creating star systems and
planets ... [sic] either randomly, or to fit a specific campaign.
"* Descriptions of 21 character types ... [sic] and new advantages,
disadvantages, and skills for a far-future campaign.
"* Three variant human races -- heavy-worlders, light-worlders, and
Spacers -- and guidelines for creating new and different sorts of
genetically-enhanced humans
"* Four alien races.  Meet the ...
"* Science-fiction gadgets, weapons, and medical technology.
"* Starship construction rules from TL8 (just around the corner) to
TL15+ (science fantasy).
"* Quick but detailed /abstract/ ship combat rules -- no ship ocunters,
just roleplaying ... [sic] for a quick determination of fleet damage,
individual ship damage, and injury [and contribution of !] characters.

"/GURPS Space/ does not tie your game to a single background.  Rather,
it is designed for the creative GM who wants to develop his /own/
universe! This book presents a wide variety of choinces and background
information, to let you recreate your favorite science fiction
background -- or build your own, from the homeworld out.

"* Choose the scale of your compaign -- one star system, or a million.
"* Choose the type of campaign you want to run -- space pirates or Star
Patrol, hard-working merchangs or hard-bitten mercenaries, clever
smugglers or starry-eyed explorers, humans or aliens.
"* Choose the political background -- from scattered independet worlds,
through a loos Alliance or Federation, to a star-spanning Empire.  Or
perhaps you'd prefer a Corporate State, run by big business.  It's all here.
"* Choose the technological background -- from a wide variety of
startdrives, power plants, and weaponry -- to give the campaign the
scope and flavor you choose.

"Years in the making [ie years behind schedule], /GURPS Space/ is
essentially a survey of the whole space-adventure genre as it relates to
roleplaying.  If you're ready to create your own future ...[sic] it's yours.

[fine print] "This book is designed for use with the /GURPS Basic Set/,
but can be used as a sourcebook for any roleplaying game in outer space.

[credits]"

- ------

bill ricker
wricker@nuhub.acs.northeastern.edu wdr@wang.wang.com

Fine Print disclaimers 
@FONT(Helvetica-Narrow,6pt :-)
GURPS, GURPS HUMANX, GURPS SPACE etc are all trademarks of Steve Jackson
Games.  Traveller etc are trademarks of GDW. The  OtherSuns trademark is
reverting / has reverted to Niall Shapero.

I no longer have any relatives at Steve Jackson Games; even though he
laid-off my sister-in-law, we still think nicely of SJ.




-------- TML Message #773 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 773
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 90 01:53:17 -0500
From: (wilson m liaw) macgyver@cis.ohio-state.edu
Subject: DGP Writer's Guideline



Since someone asked me for a DGP Writer's Guideline. I figured the list might
want to have a copy. 

Disclaimer : I have no connection with DGP whatsoever. Other than that I know
a few people in it.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------
 It is important for us to emphasize that you must be serious
 about wanting to write or draw for MegaTraveller. That means you
 are willing to commit to deadlines, and that you are willing to
 be adaptable to our needs.

 Here's your first tip to going places as a contributor:

  "Save us doing your work for you."

 For example, if we get your written piece, and it contains misspelled
 words, then WE have to fix them. What that says to us is "this guy's
 sloppy. He doesn't even care enough to take a few minutes and
 look up words in a dictionary. He'd rather make US do it." That's a
 good way to get on our black list.

 Here's another example: if you send us a piece, and you make some
 reference to a prior bit of history and you get the dates wrong (because
 you just put the dates in from memory), then we get real nervous. We
 think: "this guy is careless -- here's a reference that is wrong. How
 do we know any of his other references are right?" Now WE have to go
 and check all your references.

 See my point? You should have enough professional courtesy to do your

 job carefully. To many people think they can be sloppy and get away
 with it.

 So if you really want you submission to stand out from the pack, put
 just that extra bit of effort into it to make sure you got things right.
 Do that, and your work will move to the top of the stack every time.

 --Joe D. Fugate Sr., Editor, DGP
- ---------------------------------------------
R.CASWELL                    at 20:30 EST

     As many of you may have read in issue #16 of The Travellers' Digest, we
are currently looking to expand our base of illustrators for our product line -
primarily in the area of interior (B&W) illustrations. Unfortunately, GEnie is
not as convenient a submission vehicle for art, as it is for writing - thus
all interested are still limited to mailing in work to our offices (Digest
Group Publications, 8979 Mandan Ct., Boise, ID 83709).
     We are looking primarily for pen & ink work, but we're open to pencil
work if the technique and contrast are good.  Our Artists' Guidelines go into
detail about our needs.  They may soon be posted here, but till that time, you
can request a copy via GEnie and we can send a copy your way.
     Once again, with the ambitious release schedule we're anticipating, we'll
need a greater baseline of illustrators.  If you feel your work is good, you
can produce under a deadline, and you have a good feel for the "look" of
MegaTraveller; we'd like to hear from you.
     Please send all inquiries to my attention:

                    Rob Caswell (R.CASWELL - GEnie address)
                    DGP Art Director, Associate Editor
 ------------
J.FUGATE                     at 05:03 MST


 WRITING GUIDELINES
 The easiest way to "break into" writing for us is through our magazine,
 The Travellers' Digest.  (Once we know your quality, we can consider you
 for other products.) We will not take anything too "far out".  Remember
 that everything we publish must be officially approved by Game
 Designers' Workshop.

 MATERIAL USED
 Query letters: Send a query letter first, not a complete manuscript.
 Tell us what subject you would like to write about, the "slant" you
 would take, and a proposed length.  If we like your idea, we will invite
 you to submit a finished article for consideration.

 If we don't like your idea, we'll let you know before you've invested
 hours on something we can't use.  What usually happens is that we like
 some of your suggestions, but not others. Remember first impressions
 count, so make those query letters sizzle!

 "MegaTraveller Adventure": These adventures take place after Strephon's
 assassination; length runs from 2,000 to 8,000 words.  Opportunities are
 rife here.  Adventures for other products like campaign sourcebooks --
 heavy on adventure and background -- can run as long as 100,000 words,
 but we publish fewer of these.

 "Gaming Digest":  A regular column dealing with aspects of roleplaying
 in general and MegaTraveller in particular, running from 1,500 to 6,000
 words.

 "Traveller Tech Briefs":  A regular column dealing with new and exciting
 technology for players and referees to include in their games.  Length
 runs from 1,000 to 4,000 words typically, but longer articles are
 sometimes used for special topics. These are written from the point of
 view of the Third Imperium, not present-day Earth.

 "Medical Digest": A regular column, like "Tech Briefs" but dealing with
 issues relating to high- tech medicine. Length runs from 2,000 to 6,000
 words.

 "Sector Maps, Library Data for the Sector":  This is usually written
 in-house, but exceptions (especially with library data) can occur.
 Query first.

 "Travellers' Cache (formerly Traveller Arsenal)": A regular feature,
 giving equipment stats, a description, a task library, and an
 illustration for various weapons and equipment available to characters
 in the game.

 Ship Plans: "Innovative" is the key word here. Always query first.

 Other Traveller material:  Query first.

 2300AD material:  Adventures, colony descriptions, rule enhancements,
 character encounters, technology, starships, and whatever...

 MANUSCRIPT STYLE
 Your entire manuscript should be typed, double- spaced, on 8-1/2 x 11-
 inch paper with ample margins on either side.  Please include your name,
 address, and phone number (very important) and the approximate number of
 words.  Remember to number the pages.

 You may also submit articles on a Macintosh disk, in MacWrite format
 (12-point Geneva, ordinary margins), or on an IBM-PC disk in ASCII text
 format. We also accept ASCII text sent to us via e-mail on GEnie or
 Compuserve.

 PAYMENT RATES
 We pay one cent per word (a word is 5 characters, including spaces) for
 all rights at time of publication. This rate is negotiable if you are
 previously published and well-known.  We will also send you two
 complementary copies of whatever product your work appears in.

 We are willing and eager to help non-published writers break into print,
 but they must be serious.

 If you have questions, feel free to contact Joe Fugate, Editor, Digest
 Group Publications, 8979 Mandan Ct., Boise, ID 83709-5850; (208) 362-
 3094. E- mail address on GEnie is J.Fugate.
 ------------
Category 11,  Topic 34
Message 7         Mon Dec 04, 1989
R.CASWELL                    at 18:50 EST


DGP ART GUIDELINES

MegaTraveller  has established its own unique "look"; in many ways as defined
as that of Star Trek  or Star Wars.   The best way to establish the proper
feel for the look of the game  is to study the illustrations of several of the
artists who have worked on it: William H. Keith Jr., David Deitrick, and Tom
Peters are all fine examples to follow. We prefer for MegaTraveller art to
have a "plausible" or "realistic" look to it, rather than a caricature or
cartoon-like appearance. In some cases, we may deliberately order cartoons,
but these are the exceptions and we will plainly state when this is what we
are asking for.

The best sources to page through for samples of art include GDW's Traveller
Book, Traveller Adventure, Library Data supplements, and back issues of The
Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society, as well as our own works: The
Travellers' Digest, Referees' Gaming Kit,and Worldbuilders' Handbook.

The Shattered Imperium is a very large place, taking years to traverse in even
the fastest starship. This vastness, by its very nature, makes for a wide
variation in mechanical design, clothing, customs, and so on although there
should be a standard of consistency when dealing  with any of the standard
starship designs.

MegaTraveller has an established technological progression, so take care not
to create out of place technology . . The safest approach when drawing
technology that is part of any faction's service is to send us a sketch first
or ask, during the assignment process, where references can be found. As you
can see, having access to a library of the game's previously published
material is beneficial to both you and us.

With the advent of the Rebellion, it is not out of place for some
MegaTraveller technology to have a hasty or makeshift look, especially when
dealing with military technology. The battles have  raged on for over 4 years
(gametime), and many of the technological support networks have been disrupted
- - thus, the services have been doing all they could to keep their existing
equipment operational.

STANDARDS AND RATES We are always looking for new artists to support our
products.  If you have not yet sent us a small portfolio of your work, please
do so (send only non-returnable xeroxes) and let us know what you like to
illustrate: spacecraft, aliens, people, spacescapes, etc. Please include a
SASE with all submissions.

We are looking mostly for clean, crisp pen and ink line art or high
contrast/well-toned pencil pieces.  If you wish to produce a work in another
type of medium, please contact the art director before doing so.  We prefer
that the work be produced at twice the published size (i.e., a quarter page
piece done to fit in a 90mm x 110mm space should be drawn at 180mm x 220mm)
and that it be done on durable material, such as bristol board.  If you wish
to use shading film on your work, do not use more than 42.5 line, since it
will not reproduce properly. Please be sure to package your work with a sturdy
backer (like corrugated cardborad) so it does not get damaged in transit. If
sending by US Mail, AT  LEAST send your package with insurance.

Unless an alternate arrangement is agreed upon before hand, payment is made
upon publication (allow a couple of weeks for processing). Our starting rates
are as follows:  $12 for quarter page (85mm wide by 110mm, finished size),
$22.50 for half page (175mm wide by 110mm), and $45 for full page (175mm wide
by 240mm). Higher prices are paid for works by name artists or superior
quality.  Rates for color cover art are negotiable (starting at $250); contact
the art director for further information. In addition to monetary payment,
complimentary copies of the product will be sent to all contributors.

Digest Group Publications buys first North American reproduction rights.
Additionally, we buy all "gaming rights".  This means that the work is not
authorized to be resold/reprinted for use in any other game system. We pay for
all additional uses of illustrations (not including advertising usage) at a
rate of 30% the original price - thus, if we reuse a piece of your work, you
will receive a payment and complimentary copies.  The single exception we have
to our second use policy is with our Travellers' Digest covers.  When we
purchase those, it includes purchasing the right to reproduce a smaller B&W
version in the opening of that issue's feature adventure. All originals are
returned to the artist.

There are a number of reasons that work may be returned for re-execution, but
the primary reasons are that the work is not reproduceable or does not conform
to the conventions established for MegaTraveller. If you are unsure of your
work's "accuracy" to the MegaTraveller universe, we encourage you to send in
xeroxes of your preliminary pencils for approval. Please do not send
unsolicited art.  We usually have specific art needs and prefer to give you a
specific assignment.

All portfolios and art-related inquiries should be sent to: Rob Caswell- Art
Director (GEnie address = R.CASWELL); 8979 Mandan Ct.; Boise, ID, 83709. *s

 ------------
J.FUGATE                     at 01:50 MST

 DGP STYLE GUIDE 
If you are going to write manuscripts for us, you can get a leg up on your
 competition (other writers) if you follow our style. Here, spelled out in
 black and white, are some of our preferences. If you follow these guidelines,
 you immediately eliminate a lot of editing work we have to do to get your
 manuscript in shape -- and, of course, if you save us work, we love you for
 it.

 BAD PHRASES AND WORDS
 Phrases and words we prefer to avoid using...

 Phrase/word     Replace with      Comments
 --------------  ----------------  ---------------------------------------
 due to          because of        "due to" means you owe somebody money
 etc.            and so on         etc. ugly, "and so on" more readable
 utilize         use               avoid all "ize" words, "use" much better
 very            (just pull it)    "very" too general, be more specific


 PUNCTUATION GUIDE

 Using an "em dash" (--) in place of a semicolon (;) is more modern style.
 Use a semicolon only sparingly. Ocassionally, a colon (:) is appropriate for
 variety.

 Examples:

 When generating a gas giant, roll 3D for density; at times this will yield...

 Preferred...
 When generating a gas giant, roll 3D for density -- at times this will
yield...

 Okay once in a while for variety...
 When generating a gas giant, roll 3D for density: at times this will yield...

 Note: DO NOT capitalize the first word of the phrase following the colon (:).

 I wouldn't say *don't ever* use a semicolon; just limit its use to rare
 ocassions.

 Use "bangs" (!) sparingly! Overuse of the exclamation point weakens the
 emphasis and makes the text look cheap!! So watch out for this!!!


 OTHER GUIDELINES

 We use one space between sentences, not two. Word processing folks use
 two spaces between sentences, typesetters use only one. You can guess which
 camp we view ourselves as being in.

 Use tabs to align text columns, not spaces. Tabs are easier for us to work
 with since we can move directly to typesetting the table. Otherwise, we
 have to manually go in and change all your spaces to tabs the hard way.

 At the beginning of a paragraph, put in one tab for the paragraph indent.

 Any place where you want us to put in a bullet, type a small "o". For
 example:

 o Option 1: This option lets you ...
 o Option 2: With option two...

 and so on.

 Note we do our section headings with all CAPS.
 ------------


					Mac


Wilson "Mac" Liaw                    | If you put your mind to it, you can 
Internet:macgyver@cis.ohio-state.edu | acomplish anything. 
=====================================|      - Marty McFly, Back To The Future 
Disclaimer:All opinions are mine only|-----------------------------------------




-------- TML Message #774 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 774
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 90 08:20:37 PST
From: gazis@halley.arc.nasa.gov
Subject: Re: Traveller software



     Is simple: Re-write the code so that the GDW copywrited stuff (I assume
this is tables and whatnot) is stored in a data file.  Then distribute the
code (which will no longer contain any copyrighted stuff) along with
instructions to the user on how to create the necessary data file.  The
user can then generate the file from GDW material, or better yet, from
stuff that he/she makes up on their own.

Paul Gazis



-------- TML Message #775 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 775
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 90 18:57:39 MST
From: (SULAIMAN) asulaima@udenva.cair.du.edu
Subject: Re:Megatraveller ships & Vehicles





Megatraveller ships & Vehicles.

This is with regard to the ships posted recently by someone from Sweden
Unfortunately I lost his address so I cannot mail directly to him. 
It appears that there are a few or more errors in those designs that people
might want to know about.

1. Patrol Cruiser Type T-Mk2 and Type T-MFG 
   The Powerplant output of 4428Mw is insufficient to power the ships as they
   atleast require 4800Mw if using antigrav maneuver and over 4900Mw if using
   thrusters. Increasing ouput would likely increse the cost of the ships
   while also reducing its endurance etc. The version I have been using and
   one that has been posted is very similar. However it has a 5008 Mw Pplant
   and its endurance is 14/44 upgradable to 24/71 by using extra internal
   fuel tanks.

2. Vargr ships.
   I was under the general impression that Vargr ships were maxed out at TL13
   and that was the overall max TL for Vargrs. Even though I have seen 
   Kedzudh at TL16 etc. Overall there ships would in general be under TL15 as 
   a rule. Most GDW Vargr ships are souped up TL 11 ships.
  
   Anyway that is my only disagreement with the VF etc.

   However the Corsair is another story. First a model 2 comp is insufficient
   to control over 20000 CP which this ship has. A fairly simple upgrade to
   4 ought to do with slight modifications to other control systems.
   My other question is with regard to the fact that it is such a 'tight' ship.
   It is barely able to function at TL15 and supposedly it has been around for
   atleast a millenium. Plus a corsair usually/mostly operates far from
   established(read TL15) worlds how do u repair it. On a related note, the
   'Imperial' corsair can't function on a model 2 either.
  
   So a Vargr corsair at <TL15 say around TL13 would be interesting to see.
   I have designed a few ships and it appears that old Traveller ships have
   major problems translating into MegaTraveller. It seems that under TL15
   those designs are practically unworkable. High Guard seems to translate 
   well unless the ships have anything over a 1 or 2 armor rating.

   However I would like to see more ship designs up here on TML. I would like
   to contact this person on e-mail as I seem to have lost his address. So 
   would the person please contact me.

	Ameer Z. Sulaiman
        asulaima@udenva.cair.du.edu

	




-------- TML Message #776 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 776
From: (Bertil Jonell) d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Errata for some of my designs...
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 90 11:41:51 MET DST


As Ameer has pointed out: several of the ship designs I posted had
some flaws. Here is the errata:

Place: A battleship somewhere between Capitol and Dlan
Time: Sometime around mid 1118

Lucan <points> "Dulinor is in that ship that's escaping at 4Gee's, I 
	command you to pursue and capture him, Admiral!"
The Admiral <squirms> "That is impossible, Your Imperial Highness, Our
	Type T/Mk2's only has a 3Gee drive!"
Lucan <jumps up and down and proceeds to chew up the carpeting> 
	"I will have that naval architect *shot*!"
The Admiral "Things like this have happened before, Your Imperial Highness,
	Remember when the new designsystem came and all the battleships
	went from Jump6 6Gee Agility6 to Jump6 1Gee and No agility in just
	oner day!"
Lucan <whines> "They're all against me! It isn't *fair*! I will immediately
	proclaim an Imperial Edict to the effect that all my ships shall
	have Jump6 6Gee and Agility6 and those of the rebels just Jump1 1Gee
	and no agility!"
The Admiral "As you wish, Your Imperial Highness"


The Errata:
Type T/Mk2 and T/MFG:
(correction) Both these ships shall only have a 3Gee drive.

The Vargr Corsair:
(correction) This ship *was* designed with a Model4! The Model2 is
a typing error (All controls fits in with a Model4)

Type VM:
(correction) The computer shall be Model3. The controls 89 Hololink and 
one HoloHud. Price will be 114,233 MCr (incl 20% discount)

Type VJ-14:
(addition) The computer is slightly too small. The Vargr solution is to
add 49kl of electronic (TL7 non-linked) controls at the expence of some
cargospace. These controls is *not* controllable by the onboard computer
and handles the Environment! The Type VJ-14 in generally considered to be
a Red Zone and is to be avoided at all costs!
The data will be: Electronic = 490 units, Wt Power and Cost is inconsequential.

Type VA:
(correction) This ship also requires a larger computer: The Mod1bis is
replaced by a Model2, Price will be raised by 2.4 MCr, cargo will be
4.5 kl less.

Also: I have modifyed the Armour materials table a little making LoTech
materials cheaper and HiTech more expensive. I use a Price Mod of 1.2
for ordinary TL15 starship hullmetal. The price increase visavis the
standard is in nearly all cases just a few %.

The other Vargr ships seem to be ok, But if anyone spots any strange stuff,
please let me know.

- -bertil-
- -- 
Bertil K K Jonell @ Chalmers University of Technology, Gothenburg
NET: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se 
VOICE: +46 31 723971 / +46 300 61004     "Don't worry,I've got Pilot-7"
SNAILMAIL: Box 154,S-43900 Onsala,SWEDEN      (Famous last words)      
"GOOD DEEL ON SLIGHTLY USED CRANE" Orson Scott Card 'The Abyss'




-------- TML Message #777 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 777
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 90 07:29:29 PST
From: (John Redden) redden@ttidca.tti.COM
Subject: cosmos 14 (long)


Cosmos # 14;  This program automates cosmos #11, 12 and 13.  Compile
"cc -o sgen sgen.c -lm"  There are no bugs.  And if you believe that
I have a farm to sell you in the sky.  Suggestions and errors will be
greatly appreciated.

- -John R.

- -------------------- cut here ------------------------------------------------
#include <stdio.h>

#define GRAN 10

#define NOCOMSS 20
#define JUMP 0
#define LIB JUMP+1
#define CBT LIB+1
#define SKL CBT+1
#define FWD SKL+1
#define COMM FWD+1
#define PER05 0
#define PER10 PER05+1
#define PER12 PER10+1
#define PER15 PER12+1
#define PER20 PER15+1
#define PER23 PER20+1
#define PER25 PER23+1
#define PER30 PER25+1
#define PER35 PER30+1
#define PER40 PER35+1
#define PER45 PER40+1
#define PER50 PER45+1
#define PER90 PER50+1
#define PER0 PER90+1

#define PRINT 1
#define NOPRINT 0
#define SLEN 256
#define PATHSIZE 256

double log();
FILE *fopen();

int getcn();
int tech_level();
int emass();
int num_computers();
int int_computers();
int computers_jobs();
int num_eweapons();
int screens();
int life_support();
int cryogenics();
int floor_s_cubed();
int hull_mass();
int mad_mass();
int cong_mass();
int ship_dens();
int jumpdrive();
int psionics();
int report();
int explosion();
int grav_drive();
int free_eunits();

int (*emass_action[])()={
  life_support,
  explosion,
  free_eunits,
  0
  };

int (*tl_action[])()={
  emass,
  num_eweapons,
  screens,
  life_support,
  cryogenics,
  floor_s_cubed,
  hull_mass,
  cong_mass,
  jumpdrive,
  explosion,
  grav_drive,
  free_eunits,
  0
  };
int (*eweap_action[])()={
  jumpdrive,
  explosion,
  grav_drive,
  0
  };

int (*init_action[])()={
  tech_level,
  emass,
  num_computers,
  int_computers,
  computers_jobs,
  num_eweapons,
  screens,
  life_support,
  cryogenics,
  floor_s_cubed,
  hull_mass,
  mad_mass,
  cong_mass,
  ship_dens,
  jumpdrive,
  explosion,
  grav_drive,
  free_eunits,
  psionics,
  0
};

struct cyber {
float comps;
int compt;
int psi;
int sec_nerv;
int pri_nerv;
int pss;
int psr;
};

struct ship_archi {
int nc;
struct cyber cyber[NOCOMSS];
float tl;
float emass;
float intel;
float eunits;
float ocvbase;
float ocvmass;
float now;
float odvenbase;
float dcvbase;
float dscbase;
float dscmass;
float scsum;
float isyseunits;
float isysmass;
float cryeunits;
float cryscsum;
float flsq3;
float flmass;
float bsm;
float odvenmass;
float dcvmass;
float crymass;
float humass;
float hpips;
float hudv;
float madmass;
float cgunits;
float cgmass;
float cgrange;
float madgbase;
float tsm;
float jumass;
float jubase;
float jubase2;
float jubase5;
float jutime;
float dens;
float explr;
float feunits;
float scbase;
}ship_archi;

float logtl;
float logtlm6;
float logtlm7;
float logtlm8;
float logtlm9;
float logtlm10;
float logtlm14;
float logtlm18;

main(argc, argv)
int argc;
char **argv;
{
for(/* ever*/ ;;){
  switch(get_menu()){
  case 0:
    exit(0);
  case 1:
    s_from_scratch();
    break;
  case 2:
    report();
    break;
  case 3:
    freport();
    break;
  case 4:
    c_emass();
    break;
  case 5:
    c_tl();
    break;
  case 6:
    c_eweap();
    break;
  case 7:
    c_num_comp();
    break;
  case 8:
    c_int_comp();
    break;
  case 9:
    c_job_comp();
    break;
  case 10:
    c_life_support();
    break;
  case 11:
    c_cryo();
    break;
  case 12:
    c_floors3();
    break;
  case 13:
    c_hull_mass();
    break;
  case 14:
    c_cong_mass();
    break;
  case 15:
    c_ship_dens();
    break;
  default:
    fprintf(stderr, "No nO no :( \n");
  }
}
}

get_menu()
{
int answ;

fprintf(stdout, "exit -> 0\nstart_over -> 1\nreport -> 2\n");
fprintf(stdout, "cp to file -> 3\nchange emass -> 4\n");
fprintf(stdout, "change tech level -> 5\nchange no energy weapons -> 6\n");
fprintf(stdout, "change number of computer systems -> 7\n");
fprintf(stdout, "change intelligence of computer systems -> 8\n");
fprintf(stdout, "change jobs of computer systems -> 9\n");
fprintf(stdout, "change life support systems -> 10\n");
fprintf(stdout, "change cryogenics -> 11\n");
fprintf(stdout, "change cubic meters of ship floor -> 12\n");
fprintf(stdout, "change hull mass -> 13\nchange contra grav mass -> 14\n");
fprintf(stdout, "change ship density -> 15\n");
scanf("%d", &answ);
return(answ);
}

s_from_scratch()
{
  register int	(**ponent_ptr)();
  
  for (ponent_ptr= &init_action[0]; *ponent_ptr; ponent_ptr++) 
    (**ponent_ptr)(PRINT);
}

c_emass()
{
  register int	(**ponent_ptr)();
  
  emass(PRINT);
  for (ponent_ptr= &emass_action[0]; *ponent_ptr; ponent_ptr++) 
    (**ponent_ptr)(NOPRINT);
}

c_tl()
{
  register int	(**ponent_ptr)();
  
  tech_level(PRINT);
  for (ponent_ptr= &tl_action[0]; *ponent_ptr; ponent_ptr++) 
    (**ponent_ptr)(NOPRINT);
}

c_eweap()
{
  register int	(**ponent_ptr)();

  num_eweapons(PRINT);
  for (ponent_ptr= &eweap_action[0]; *ponent_ptr; ponent_ptr++) 
    (**ponent_ptr)(NOPRINT);
}

c_num_comp()
{
 
  num_computers(PRINT);
  int_computers(PRINT);
  computers_jobs(PRINT);
  num_eweapons(NOPRINT);

}

c_int_comp()
{
 
  int_computers(PRINT);
  computers_jobs(PRINT);
  psionics(NOPRINT);
  num_eweapons(NOPRINT);
}

 c_job_comp()
{
  computers_jobs(PRINT);
  num_eweapons(NOPRINT);
}

c_life_support()
{
  life_support(PRINT);
  jumpdrive(NOPRINT);
  free_eunits(NOPRINT);
}

c_cryo()
{
  cryogenics(PRINT);
  jumpdrive(NOPRINT);
  free_eunits(NOPRINT);
}

c_floors3()
{
  floor_s_cubed(PRINT);
  jumpdrive(NOPRINT);
}

c_hull_mass()
{
  hull_mass(PRINT);
  jumpdrive(NOPRINT);
}

c_cong_mass()
{
  cong_mass(PRINT);
  jumpdrive(NOPRINT);
}

c_ship_dens()
{
  ship_dens(PRINT);
  explosion(NOPRINT);
}

tech_level(p)
int p;
{
if(p){
  printf("Enter TL <tech level> \n");
  scanf("%f", &ship_archi.tl);
}

logtlm7 = 0.0;
if(ship_archi.tl <= 6.0)
  fprintf(stderr, "no space ships below tech level 7 \n");
logtl = log(ship_archi.tl);
if(ship_archi.tl > 6.0)
  logtlm6 = log(ship_archi.tl - 6.0);
if(ship_archi.tl > 7.0)
  logtlm7 = log(ship_archi.tl - 7.0);
if(ship_archi.tl > 8.0)
  logtlm8 = log(ship_archi.tl - 8.0);
if(ship_archi.tl > 9.0)
  logtlm9 = log(ship_archi.tl - 9.0);
if(ship_archi.tl > 10.0)
  logtlm10 = log(ship_archi.tl - 10.0);
if(ship_archi.tl > 14.0)
  logtlm14 = log(ship_archi.tl - 14.0);
if(ship_archi.tl > 18.0)
  logtlm18 = log(ship_archi.tl - 18.0);
ship_archi.ocvmass = logtl * 7 / ship_archi.tl;
ship_archi.dcvmass = logtlm7;
return;
}

emass(p)
int p;
{
ship_archi.eunits = 0.0;
if(ship_archi.tl <= 8.0){
  fprintf(stderr, "no high energy systems below tech level 9 \n");
  return;
}
if(p){
  printf("Enter Emass <energy mass> \n");
  scanf("%f",  &ship_archi.emass);
}
ship_archi.eunits = logtl * ship_archi.emass;
}

num_computers(p)
int p;
{
if(ship_archi.tl < 7.0){
  fprintf(stderr, "no computer systems below tech level 7 \n");
  return;
}
printf("Enter number of computer systems \n");
scanf("%d", &ship_archi.nc);
while (ship_archi.nc > NOCOMSS){
  printf("too many \n");
  printf("Enter number of computer sytems \n");
  scanf("%d", &ship_archi.nc);
}
}

int_computers(p)
int p;
{
float intel;
int i;

  for (i = 0; i < ship_archi.nc; i++){
    printf("Enter INT <intelligence> of computer \n");
    scanf("%f", &intel);
    ship_archi.cyber[i].comps = intel;
  }
}

computers_jobs(p)
int p;
{
  printf("computer no for jump ctl? \n");
  ship_archi.cyber[JUMP].compt = getcn();
  printf("computer no for library ctl? \n");
  ship_archi.cyber[LIB].compt = getcn();
  printf("computer no for offense/defense? \n");
  ship_archi.cyber[CBT].compt = getcn();
  printf("computer no for skill simulation? \n");
  ship_archi.cyber[SKL].compt = getcn();
  printf("computer no for observation? \n");
  ship_archi.cyber[FWD].compt = getcn();
  printf("computer no for communications? \n");
  ship_archi.cyber[COMM].compt = getcn();
  
  ship_archi.scbase = ship_archi.cyber[ship_archi.cyber[FWD].compt].comps *
                      logtlm7;
}

int getcn()
{
int i;

for(;; /* ever */){
  scanf("%d", &i);
  if (i <= ship_archi.nc && i > 0)
    return(i - 1);
  printf("that one isn't there! \n");
}
}

num_eweapons(p)
int p;
{
if (ship_archi.tl <= 7.0){
  fprintf(stderr, "no energy weapons below tech level 8");
  return;
}
ship_archi.ocvmass = logtl * 7 / ship_archi.tl;
ship_archi.ocvbase = ship_archi.cyber[ship_archi.cyber[CBT].compt].comps * logtlm7;
if(p){
  printf("number of energy weapon systems? \n");
  scanf("%f", &ship_archi.now);
}
ship_archi.odvenbase = ship_archi.now * logtlm8;
ship_archi.odvenmass = ship_archi.now / logtl;
ship_archi.dcvbase = ship_archi.cyber[ship_archi.cyber[CBT].compt].comps * logtlm7;
}

screens(p)
int p;
{

if(ship_archi.tl <= 10.0){
  fprintf(stderr, "secondary energy screens do no exist before tech level");
  fprintf(stderr, " 11 \n");
  return;
}
ship_archi.dscbase = logtlm10 * logtl;
ship_archi.dscmass = logtlm10 * 10.0 / ship_archi.tl;
}

life_support(p)
int p;
{
if(ship_archi.tl <= 6.0){
  fprintf(stderr, "life support systems do not exist before tech level");
  fprintf(stderr, " 7 \n");
  return;
}
if(p){
  printf("total lifeform size supported <6.41 = large human> \n");
  scanf("%f", &ship_archi.scsum);
}
ship_archi.isyseunits = ship_archi.scsum / logtl;
ship_archi.isysmass = ship_archi.isyseunits;
}

cryogenics(p)
int p;
{
if(ship_archi.tl <= 8.0){
  fprintf(stderr, "cryogenic systems do not exist before tech level");
  fprintf(stderr, " 9 \n");
  return;
}
if(p){
  printf("total lifeform size supported by cryogenics \n");
  scanf("%f", &ship_archi.cryscsum);
}
ship_archi.cryeunits = ship_archi.cryscsum / logtl * logtl;
ship_archi.crymass = ship_archi.cryeunits;
}

floor_s_cubed(p)
int p;
{
if(ship_archi.tl <= 6.0){
  fprintf(stderr, "spaceships do not exist before tech level");
  fprintf(stderr, " 7 \n");
  return;
}
if(p){
  printf("enter floor space in cubic meters \n");
  scanf("%f", &ship_archi.flsq3);
}
ship_archi.flmass = ship_archi.flsq3 / (27 * logtl);
}

hull_mass(p)
int p;
{
if(ship_archi.tl <= 6.0){
  fprintf(stderr, "spaceships do not exist before tech level");
  fprintf(stderr, " 7 \n");
  return;
}
if(p){
  printf("enter hull mass in metric tons \n");
  scanf("%f", &ship_archi.humass);
}
ship_archi.hudv = logtlm7 * ship_archi.humass / 100.0;
ship_archi.hpips = ship_archi.hudv * 36.0;
}

mad_mass(p)
int p;
{
if(ship_archi.tl <= 6.0){
  fprintf(stderr, "spaceships do not exist before tech level");
  fprintf(stderr, " 7 \n");
  return;
}
printf("enter maneuver drive mass \n");
scanf("%f", &ship_archi.madmass);
}

cong_mass(p)
int p;
{
if (ship_archi.tl <= 9.0){
  fprintf(stderr, "contra-gravity does not exist before tech level");
  fprintf(stderr, "10 \n");
  return;
}
if(p){
  printf("enter contra-gravity mass \n");
  scanf("%f", &ship_archi.cgmass);
}
if(ship_archi.tl < 15.0){
  ship_archi.cgunits = ship_archi.cgmass * logtlm9 * logtl;
  ship_archi.cgrange = ship_archi.cgmass;
}
else{
  if(ship_archi.tl < 19.0){
    ship_archi.cgunits = ship_archi.cgmass * logtlm14 * logtlm14 * logtl;
    ship_archi.cgrange = ship_archi.cgmass;
    }
  else{
    ship_archi.cgunits = ship_archi.cgmass * logtlm18 * logtlm18 * logtl
                          * logtl;
    ship_archi.cgrange = ship_archi.cgmass * logtl *logtl;
  }
}
}

ship_dens(p)
int p;
{
if(ship_archi.tl <= 6.0){
  fprintf(stderr, "spaceships do not exist before tech level");
  fprintf(stderr, " 7 \n");
  return;
}
printf("enter density of ship as percentage \n");
scanf("%f", &ship_archi.dens);
ship_archi.dens /= 100.0;
}

jumpdrive(p)
int p;
{
if(ship_archi.tl <= 9.0){
  fprintf(stderr, "jumpdrive does not exist before tech level");
  fprintf(stderr, " 10 \n");
  return;
}
ship_archi.bsm = ship_archi.flmass + ship_archi.isysmass + ship_archi.dscmass 
                 + ship_archi.ocvmass + ship_archi.emass + ship_archi.humass
		 + ship_archi.dcvmass + ship_archi.odvenmass + 
		 ship_archi.crymass + ship_archi.madmass + ship_archi.cgmass;

if (ship_archi.tl > 9.0 && ship_archi.tl <= 14.0){
  ship_archi.jubase = logtl * logtlm9 / ship_archi.bsm;
  ship_archi.jumass = ship_archi.jubase * 100.0 / logtl;
  ship_archi.tsm = ship_archi.bsm + ship_archi.jumass;
  ship_archi.jubase = logtl * logtlm9 / ship_archi.tsm;
  ship_archi.jubase2 = logtl * logtlm9 / (ship_archi.tsm * 2);
  ship_archi.jubase5 = logtl * logtlm9 / (ship_archi.tsm * 5);
}else
  {if (ship_archi.tl > 18.0){
    ship_archi.jubase = logtl * logtlm18 / ship_archi.bsm;
    ship_archi.jumass = ship_archi.jubase / logtl;
    ship_archi.tsm = ship_archi.bsm + ship_archi.jumass;
    ship_archi.jubase = logtl * logtlm18 / ship_archi.tsm;
    ship_archi.jubase2 = logtl * logtlm18 / (ship_archi.tsm * 2);
    ship_archi.jubase5 = logtl * logtlm18 / (ship_archi.tsm * 5);
  }else
    {
      ship_archi.jubase = logtl * logtlm14 / ship_archi.bsm;
      ship_archi.jumass = ship_archi.jubase / logtl;
      ship_archi.tsm = ship_archi.bsm + ship_archi.jumass;
      ship_archi.jubase = logtl * logtlm14 / ship_archi.tsm;
      ship_archi.jubase2 = logtl * logtlm14 / (ship_archi.tsm * 2);
      ship_archi.jubase5 = logtl * logtlm14 / (ship_archi.tsm * 5);
    }
 }
}

explosion(p){
int p;
if(ship_archi.tl <= 5.0){
  fprintf(stderr, "missiles do not exist before tech level");
  fprintf(stderr, " 6 \n");
  return;
}
ship_archi.explr = logtlm6 * ship_archi.eunits * ship_archi.tsm * 
                   ship_archi.dens;
}

grav_drive(p){
int p;
if(ship_archi.tl <= 8.0){
  fprintf(stderr, "gravatic drives do not exist before tech level");
  fprintf(stderr, " 9 \n");
  return;
}
ship_archi.madgbase = logtlm8 * ship_archi.madmass;
}

free_eunits(p){
int p;
ship_archi.feunits = ship_archi.eunits - ship_archi.isyseunits - 
                     ship_archi.cryeunits;
}

psionics(p)
int p;
{
int i;

for (i = 0; i < ship_archi.nc; i++){
  if(p){
    printf("psionic base computer no %d:", i);
    scanf("%d", &ship_archi.cyber[i].psi);
    printf("/ncomputer secondary nerve rating \(DEX\):");
    scanf("%d", &ship_archi.cyber[i].sec_nerv);
    printf("/ncomputer primary nerve rating \(STR\):");
    scanf("%d", &ship_archi.cyber[i].pri_nerv);
  }
  ship_archi.cyber[i].pss = ship_archi.cyber[i].psi * 2 + ship_archi.cyber[i].comps + ship_archi.cyber[i].pri_nerv;
  ship_archi.cyber[i].psr = ship_archi.cyber[i].psi * 2 + ship_archi.cyber[i].comps + ship_archi.cyber[i].sec_nerv;
}
}

report()
{
FILE *fdes;
fdes = stdout;
report_1(fdes);
}

freport()
{
FILE *fdes;
char fname[PATHSIZE];
fprintf(stdout, "name of file : ");
scanf("%s", fname);
if((fdes = fopen(fname, "w")) < 0){
  perror("fopen %s failed", fname);
  return;
}

report_1(fdes);
}

report_1(fdes)
FILE *fdes;
{
static float fep[] = {0.05, 0.10, 0.12, 0.15, 0.20, 0.23, 0.25, 0.30, 0.35,
		      0.40, 0.45, 0.50, 0.90, -1.0};
static float fes[] = {0.00, 0.00, 0.00, 0.00, 0.00, 0.00, 0.00, 0.00, 0.00,
		      0.00, 0.00, 0.00, 0.00, 0.00};

#define SCAL_PER0(x)                       \
        x, x * fes[PER05],                 \
	x * fes[PER10], x * fes[PER12],    \
	x * fes[PER15]

#define SCAL_PER20(x)                      \
        x * fes[PER20], x * fes[PER23],    \
	x * fes[PER25], x * fes[PER30],    \
	x * fes[PER35]

#define SCAL_PER40(x)                      \
        x * fes[PER40], x * fes[PER45],    \
	x * fes[PER50], x * fes[PER90] 

#define ADD_PER0(x)                       \
        x, x + fes[PER05],                 \
	x + fes[PER10], x + fes[PER12],    \
	x + fes[PER15]

#define ADD_PER20(x)                      \
        x + fes[PER20], x + fes[PER23],    \
	x + fes[PER25], x + fes[PER30],    \
	x + fes[PER35]

#define ADD_PER40(x)                      \
        x + fes[PER40], x + fes[PER45],    \
	x + fes[PER50], x + fes[PER90] 


#define PRF_PER0(x)                        \
        "x 00per %f x 5per %f x 10per %f\n x 12per %f x 15per %f \n",	

#define PRF_PER20(x)                        \
	"x 20per %f x 23per %f x 25per %f\n x 30per %f x 35per %f \n",

#define PRF_PER40(x)                        \
	"x 40per %f x 45per %f x 50per %f\n x 90per %f \n",

#define CONF(a, ocv, odven, dcv, dsc, madg, cg, ju, sc, res) \
fprintf(fdes, "\n a \n");                                         \
fprintf(fdes, "OCV %d ODVen %d DCV %d DSC %d MADG %d CGunits %d", \
	(((int)(ship_archi.ocvbase + fes[ocv])+ (GRAN / 2))/ GRAN ) * GRAN,   \
	(((int)(ship_archi.odvenbase + fes[odven])+ (GRAN / 2))/ GRAN ) * GRAN,   \
	(((int)(ship_archi.dcvbase + fes[dcv])+ (GRAN / 2))/ GRAN ) * GRAN,   \
	(((int)(ship_archi.dscbase * fes[dsc])+ (GRAN / 2))/ GRAN ) * GRAN,   \
	(((int)(ship_archi.madgbase / ship_archi.tsm * fes[madg])+ (GRAN / 2))/ GRAN ) * GRAN,   \
	(((int)(ship_archi.cgunits * fes[cg])+ (GRAN / 2))/ GRAN ) * GRAN);   \
fprintf(fdes, " JU %d SC %d FREE %d \n",                                       \
	(int)(ship_archi.jubase * fes[ju]),   \
	(((int)ship_archi.scbase + (int)fes[sc]+ (GRAN / 2))/ GRAN ) * GRAN,   \
	(((int)fes[res])/ GRAN + (GRAN / 2)) * GRAN);     \



int i;
char fname[30];
char str[SLEN];

for (i = 0; fep[i] != -1.0; i++)
  fes[i] = ship_archi.feunits * fep[i];

fprintf (fdes, "emass %f eunits %f free-eunits %f tech-level %f \n", ship_archi.emass, ship_archi.eunits,
ship_archi.feunits, ship_archi.tl);
fprintf (fdes, "\nint computer communications %f \nobserve/scanning %f \nskills %f \n"
         ,ship_archi.cyber[ship_archi.cyber[COMM].compt].comps, ship_archi.cyber[ship_archi.cyber[FWD].compt].comps, ship_archi.cyber[ship_archi.cyber[SKL].compt].comps); 
fprintf (fdes, "combat %f \nlibary %f \nhyperspace %f \n", ship_archi.cyber[ship_archi.cyber[CBT].compt].comps, 
         ship_archi.cyber[ship_archi.cyber[LIB].compt].comps, ship_archi.cyber[ship_archi.cyber[JUMP].compt].comps); 
fprintf(fdes, "\n");
for(i = 0; i < ship_archi.nc; i++){
  fprintf(fdes, "comp sys: %d psi: %d 2nd nerv: %d 1st nerv: %d",
	  i, ship_archi.cyber[i].psi, ship_archi.cyber[i].sec_nerv,
	  ship_archi.cyber[i].pri_nerv);
  fprintf(fdes, " psr: %d pss: %d \n",ship_archi.cyber[i].psr, 
	  ship_archi.cyber[i].pss);
}
fprintf(fdes, "\n");

fprintf(fdes, "offensive damage mass %f \n", ship_archi.odvenmass);
fprintf(fdes, "offensive damage base %f \n", ship_archi.odvenbase);
fprintf(fdes, "\n");
fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER0(odven) ADD_PER0(ship_archi.odvenbase));
fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER20(odven) ADD_PER20(ship_archi.odvenbase));
fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER40(odven) ADD_PER40(ship_archi.odvenbase));

fprintf(fdes, "ship density %f explosion damage %f \n", ship_archi.dens,
	ship_archi.explr);
fprintf(fdes, "\n");
fprintf(fdes, "offensive combat mass %f \n", ship_archi.ocvmass);
fprintf(fdes, "offensive combat base %f \n", ship_archi.ocvbase);
fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER0(ocv) ADD_PER0(ship_archi.ocvbase));
fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER20(ocv) ADD_PER20(ship_archi.ocvbase));
fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER40(ocv) ADD_PER40(ship_archi.ocvbase));
fprintf(fdes, "\n");

fprintf(fdes, "energy weapon range parameters \n");
fprintf(fdes, "short @0per %f mid @0per %f long @0per %f \n",
        ship_archi.ocvbase * 100.0, ship_archi.ocvbase * 10000.0,
	ship_archi.ocvbase * 100000.0); 
fprintf(fdes, "short @05per %f mid @05per %f long @05per %f \n", 
	(ship_archi.ocvbase + fes[PER05])* 100.0, (ship_archi.ocvbase + 
        fes[PER05])* 10000.0, (ship_archi.ocvbase + fes[PER05]) * 100000.0); 
fprintf(fdes, "short @10per %f mid @10per %f long @10per %f \n", 
	(ship_archi.ocvbase + fes[PER10])* 100.0, (ship_archi.ocvbase + 
        fes[PER10])* 10000.0, (ship_archi.ocvbase + fes[PER10]) * 100000.0); 
fprintf(fdes, "short @12per %f mid @12per %f long @12per %f \n",
	(ship_archi.ocvbase + fes[PER12])* 100.0, (ship_archi.ocvbase + 
        fes[PER12])* 10000.0, (ship_archi.ocvbase + fes[PER12]) * 100000.0); 
fprintf(fdes, "short @15per %f mid @15per %f long @15per %f \n", 
	(ship_archi.ocvbase + fes[PER15])* 100.0, (ship_archi.ocvbase + 
        fes[PER15])* 10000.0, (ship_archi.ocvbase + fes[PER15]) * 100000.0); 
fprintf(fdes, "short @20per %f mid @20per %f long @20per %f \n",
	(ship_archi.ocvbase + fes[PER20])* 100.0, (ship_archi.ocvbase + 
        fes[PER20])* 10000.0, (ship_archi.ocvbase + fes[PER20]) * 100000.0); 
fprintf(fdes, "short @23per %f mid @23per %f long @23per %f \n",
	(ship_archi.ocvbase + fes[PER23])* 100.0, (ship_archi.ocvbase + 
        fes[PER23])* 10000.0, (ship_archi.ocvbase + fes[PER23]) * 100000.0); 
fprintf(fdes, "short @30per %f mid @30per %f long @30per %f \n", 
	(ship_archi.ocvbase + fes[PER30])* 100.0, (ship_archi.ocvbase + 
        fes[PER30])* 10000.0, (ship_archi.ocvbase + fes[PER30]) * 100000.0); 
fprintf(fdes, "short @35per %f mid @35per %f long @35per %f \n",
	(ship_archi.ocvbase + fes[PER35])* 100.0, (ship_archi.ocvbase + 
        fes[PER35])* 10000.0, (ship_archi.ocvbase + fes[PER35]) * 100000.0); 
fprintf(fdes, "short @40per %f mid @40per %f long @40per %f \n",
	(ship_archi.ocvbase + fes[PER40])* 100.0, (ship_archi.ocvbase + 
        fes[PER40])* 10000.0, (ship_archi.ocvbase + fes[PER40]) * 100000.0); 
fprintf(fdes, "short @45per %f mid @45per %f long @45per %f \n",
	(ship_archi.ocvbase + fes[PER45])* 100.0, (ship_archi.ocvbase + 
        fes[PER45])* 10000.0, (ship_archi.ocvbase + fes[PER45]) * 100000.0); 
fprintf(fdes, "short @50per %f mid @50per %f long @50per %f \n",
	(ship_archi.ocvbase + fes[PER50])* 100.0, (ship_archi.ocvbase + 
        fes[PER50])* 10000.0, (ship_archi.ocvbase + fes[PER50]) * 100000.0); 
fprintf(fdes, "short @90per %f mid @90per %f long @90per %f \n",
	(ship_archi.ocvbase + fes[PER90])* 100.0, (ship_archi.ocvbase + 
        fes[PER90])* 10000.0, (ship_archi.ocvbase + fes[PER90]) * 100000.0); 

fprintf(fdes, "\n");
fprintf(fdes, "defensive combat mass %f \n", ship_archi.dcvmass);
fprintf(fdes, "defensive combat base %f \n", ship_archi.dcvbase);
fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER0(dcv) ADD_PER0(ship_archi.dcvbase));
fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER20(dcv) ADD_PER20(ship_archi.dcvbase));
fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER40(dcv) ADD_PER40(ship_archi.dcvbase));


fprintf(fdes, "\n");
fprintf(fdes, "defensive screen mass %f \n", ship_archi.dscmass);
fprintf(fdes, "defensive screen base %f \n", ship_archi.dscbase);
fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER0(dsc) SCAL_PER0(ship_archi.dscbase));
fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER20(dsc) SCAL_PER20(ship_archi.dscbase));
fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER40(dsc) SCAL_PER40(ship_archi.dscbase));

fprintf(fdes, "\n");
fprintf(fdes, "internal energy units %f \n", ship_archi.isyseunits);
fprintf(fdes, "internal energy mass  %f \n", ship_archi.isysmass);
fprintf(fdes, "\n");
fprintf(fdes, "cryogenic energy units %f \n", ship_archi.cryeunits);
fprintf(fdes, "cryogenic energy mass %f \n",  ship_archi.crymass);
fprintf(fdes, "\n");
fprintf(fdes, "floor mass %f \n", ship_archi.flmass);
fprintf(fdes, "hull damage value %f \n", ship_archi.hudv);
fprintf(fdes, "hull pips %f \n", ship_archi.hpips);
fprintf(fdes, "hull mass %f \n", ship_archi.humass);

fprintf(fdes, "\n");
fprintf(fdes, "contra-gravity mass %f \n", ship_archi.cgmass);

if(ship_archi.tl < 15.0){
  fprintf(fdes, "\nfussion micro atomic technology for gravatics \n");
  fprintf(fdes, "contra-gravity eunits %f \n", ship_archi.cgunits);
  fprintf(fdes, "contra-gravity range scalar %f \n", ship_archi.cgrange);
}
else {
  if(ship_archi.tl < 19.0){
    fprintf(fdes, "\nmicro atomic technology plus partial direct matter to");
    fprintf(fdes, "energy gravatics \n");
  }
  else 
    fprintf(fdes, "\ndirect matter to energy garvatics \n");

  fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER0(cg) SCAL_PER0(ship_archi.cgunits));
  fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER20(cg) SCAL_PER20(ship_archi.cgunits));
  fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER40(cg) SCAL_PER40(ship_archi.cgunits));

  fprintf(fdes, "\n");
  fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER0(cg-range) SCAL_PER0(ship_archi.cgrange));
  fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER20(cg-range) SCAL_PER20(ship_archi.cgrange));
  fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER40(cg-range) SCAL_PER40(ship_archi.cgrange));

}

fprintf(fdes, "\n");
fprintf(fdes, "total ship mass %f \n", ship_archi.tsm);
fprintf(fdes, "base ship mass %f \n", ship_archi.bsm);
fprintf(fdes, "\n");
fprintf(fdes, "hyperdrive mass %f \n", ship_archi.jumass);
fprintf(fdes, "hyperdrive jump base %f \n", ship_archi.jubase);

if(ship_archi.tl < 15.0){
  fprintf(fdes, "\n");
  fprintf(fdes, "fussion micro atomic technology for star drive \n");
  fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER0(ju) SCAL_PER0(ship_archi.jubase));
  fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER20(ju) SCAL_PER20(ship_archi.jubase));
  fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER40(ju) SCAL_PER40(ship_archi.jubase));
}
else{
  if(ship_archi.tl < 19.0){
    fprintf(fdes, "\n");
    fprintf(fdes, "micro atomic plus partial direct matter to energy ");
    fprintf(fdes, "stardrive \n");
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER0(ju-1day-fixed) SCAL_PER0(ship_archi.jubase));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER20(ju-1day-fixed) SCAL_PER20(ship_archi.jubase));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER40(ju-1day-fixed) SCAL_PER40(ship_archi.jubase));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER0(ju-5day-fixed) SCAL_PER0(ship_archi.jubase * 5));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER20(ju-5day-fixed) SCAL_PER20(ship_archi.jubase * 5));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER40(ju-5day-fixed) SCAL_PER40(ship_archi.jubase * 5));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER0(ju-20day-fixed) SCAL_PER0(ship_archi.jubase * 20));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER20(ju-20day-fixed) SCAL_PER20(ship_archi.jubase * 20));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER40(ju-20day-fixed) SCAL_PER40(ship_archi.jubase * 20));
  }
  else {
    fprintf(fdes, "\n");
    fprintf(fdes, "direct energy to matter stardrive \n");
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER0(ju-par-hour) SCAL_PER0(ship_archi.jubase));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER20(ju-par-hour) SCAL_PER20(ship_archi.jubase));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER40(ju-par-hour) SCAL_PER40(ship_archi.jubase));
  }
}

fprintf(fdes, "\n jump parameters at two times normal mass \n");

if(ship_archi.tl < 15.0){
  fprintf(fdes, "\n");
  fprintf(fdes, "fussion micro atomic technology for star drive \n");
  fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER0(ju) SCAL_PER0(ship_archi.jubase2));
  fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER20(ju) SCAL_PER20(ship_archi.jubase2));
  fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER40(ju) SCAL_PER40(ship_archi.jubase2));
}
else{
  if(ship_archi.tl < 19.0){
    fprintf(fdes, "\n");
    fprintf(fdes, "micro atomic plus partial direct matter to energy ");
    fprintf(fdes, "stardrive \n");
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER0(ju-1day-fixed) SCAL_PER0(ship_archi.jubase2));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER20(ju-1day-fixed) SCAL_PER20(ship_archi.jubase2));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER40(ju-1day-fixed) SCAL_PER40(ship_archi.jubase2));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER0(ju-5day-fixed) SCAL_PER0(ship_archi.jubase2 * 5));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER20(ju-5day-fixed) SCAL_PER20(ship_archi.jubase2 * 5));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER40(ju-5day-fixed) SCAL_PER40(ship_archi.jubase2 * 5));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER0(ju-20day-fixed) SCAL_PER0(ship_archi.jubase2 * 20));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER20(ju-20day-fixed) SCAL_PER20(ship_archi.jubase2 * 20));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER40(ju-20day-fixed) SCAL_PER40(ship_archi.jubase2 * 20));
  }
  else {
    fprintf(fdes, "\n");
    fprintf(fdes, "direct energy to matter stardrive \n");
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER0(ju-par-hour) SCAL_PER0(ship_archi.jubase2));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER20(ju-par-hour) SCAL_PER20(ship_archi.jubase2));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER40(ju-par-hour) SCAL_PER40(ship_archi.jubase2));
  }
}

fprintf(fdes, "\n jump parameters at 5 times normal mass \n");

if(ship_archi.tl < 15.0){
  fprintf(fdes, "\n");
  fprintf(fdes, "fussion micro atomic technology for star drive \n");
  fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER0(ju) SCAL_PER0(ship_archi.jubase5));
  fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER20(ju) SCAL_PER20(ship_archi.jubase5));
  fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER40(ju) SCAL_PER40(ship_archi.jubase5));
}
else{
  if(ship_archi.tl < 19.0){
    fprintf(fdes, "\n");
    fprintf(fdes, "micro atomic plus partial direct matter to energy ");
    fprintf(fdes, "stardrive \n");
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER0(ju-1day-fixed) SCAL_PER0(ship_archi.jubase5));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER20(ju-1day-fixed) SCAL_PER20(ship_archi.jubase5));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER40(ju-1day-fixed) SCAL_PER40(ship_archi.jubase5));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER0(ju-5day-fixed) SCAL_PER0(ship_archi.jubase5 * 5));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER20(ju-5day-fixed) SCAL_PER20(ship_archi.jubase5 * 5));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER40(ju-5day-fixed) SCAL_PER40(ship_archi.jubase5 * 5));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER0(ju-20day-fixed) SCAL_PER0(ship_archi.jubase5 * 20));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER20(ju-20day-fixed) SCAL_PER20(ship_archi.jubase5 * 20));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER40(ju-20day-fixed) SCAL_PER40(ship_archi.jubase5 * 20));
  }
  else {
    fprintf(fdes, "\n");
    fprintf(fdes, "direct energy to matter stardrive \n");
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER0(ju-par-hour) SCAL_PER0(ship_archi.jubase5));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER20(ju-par-hour) SCAL_PER20(ship_archi.jubase5));
    fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER40(ju-par-hour) SCAL_PER40(ship_archi.jubase5));
  }
}

if(ship_archi.tl < 19.0){
  fprintf(fdes, "\n");
  fprintf(fdes, "manuever drive base %f \n", ship_archi.madgbase);
  fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER0(madg) SCAL_PER0(ship_archi.madgbase / ship_archi.tsm));
  fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER20(madg) SCAL_PER20(ship_archi.madgbase / ship_archi.tsm));
  fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER40(madg) SCAL_PER40(ship_archi.madgbase / ship_archi.tsm));
  fprintf(fdes, "manuever drive mass %f \n", ship_archi.madmass);
  fprintf(fdes, "\n manuever drive at 2 times ship tonnage \n");
  fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER0(madg) SCAL_PER0(ship_archi.madgbase / (ship_archi.tsm * 2)));
  fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER20(madg) SCAL_PER20(ship_archi.madgbase / (ship_archi.tsm * 2)));
  fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER40(madg) SCAL_PER40(ship_archi.madgbase / (ship_archi.tsm * 2)));
  fprintf(fdes, "manuever drive base at 5 times ship tonnage \n");
  fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER0(madg) SCAL_PER0(ship_archi.madgbase / (ship_archi.tsm * 5)));
  fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER20(madg) SCAL_PER20(ship_archi.madgbase / (ship_archi.tsm * 5)));
  fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER40(madg) SCAL_PER40(ship_archi.madgbase / (ship_archi.tsm * 5)));
}

fprintf(fdes, "\n short range scan range \n");
fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER0(sc) ADD_PER0(ship_archi.scbase));
fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER20(sc) ADD_PER20(ship_archi.scbase));
fprintf(fdes, PRF_PER40(sc) ADD_PER40(ship_archi.scbase));

CONF(Green One subspace, PER05, PER05, PER05, PER15, PER25, PER10, PER0, PER10, PER25);
CONF(Green Two subspace, PER05, PER05, PER05, PER15, PER50, PER25, PER0, PER05, PER0);
CONF(Green One hyperspace, PER05, PER05, PER05, PER05, PER05, PER05, PER30, PER05, PER35);
CONF(Green Two hyperspace, PER0, PER0, PER0, PER0, PER0, PER05, PER90, PER05, PER0);
CONF(Yellow One, PER12, PER12, PER12, PER12, PER12, PER12, PER0, PER05, PER23);
CONF(Yellow Two, PER25, PER12, PER12, PER25, PER05, PER05, PER0, PER05, PER12);
CONF(Yellow Three, PER25, PER12, PER23, PER25, PER05, PER05, PER0, PER05, PER0);
CONF(Red One, PER10, PER05, PER30, PER30, PER10, PER0, PER0, PER0, PER15);
CONF(Red Two, PER15, PER05, PER35, PER35, PER10, PER0, PER0, PER0, PER0);
CONF(Red Three, PER0, PER0, PER50, PER45, PER05, PER0, PER0, PER0, PER0);
CONF(Black One, PER35, PER40, PER05, PER05, PER05, PER05, PER0, PER05, PER0);
CONF(Gray One, PER10, PER10, PER10, PER10, PER10, PER10, PER10, PER10, PER20);
CONF(Blue One, PER05, PER05, PER05, PER05, PER05, PER30, PER30, PER0, PER15);
fprintf(fdes, "\n energy units at 1 percen %d \n", (((int)(fes[PER05] / 5.0) + (GRAN /2))
                 			    / GRAN ) * GRAN);
fflush(fdes);
}






-------- TML Message #778 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 778
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 90 13:48 EST
From: (Bob Mahoney) BOBMAH%PSC.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: Where is Norris?


Hi all!

Shattered Imperium question:

According to the map in the Rebellion Sourcebook, Deneb is right on the edge of
disputed/dangerous/whatever territory.  Same for Regina.  So where does Norris
hold court?

Also:

1) PC's buy ship.  40-year loan.
2) Shortly afterwards, Referee destroys ship.

Is it:

3) Insurance pays off loan?    (i.e., "does such insurance exist?")

Or...

3) PC's in debt forever w/o ship.

They don't have the ship yet, so take your time...  :-)


Thanks, folks.

- -Bob



-------- TML Message #779 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 779
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 90 08:39:26 EST
From: (Greg Givler - PA) givler@cbmvax.commodore.COM
Subject: Re:  Where is Norris?


>Also:
>
>1) PC's buy ship.  40-year loan.
>2) Shortly afterwards, Referee destroys ship.
>
>Is it:
>
>3) Insurance pays off loan?    (i.e., "does such insurance exist?")

I say yes, insurance does exist. I usally make it part of the ships monthly
payment, something like today, car insurance is required by the loan companies
so I would think that this would be a requirement, by the people that loan
monies for Starships.

>Thanks, folks.
>
>-Bob

No problem,

Greg
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Givler                        | Q-Link: GregGivler
Analyst - Systems Evaluation Group | CompuServe: Greg Givler 76702,647
Commodore Product Assurance        | GEnie: G.Givler
215-431-9100                       | The NET: givler@cbmvax.commodore.com
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Wild Whores couldn't keep me away!" -- George Francisco
"That's Horses, George" -- Matt Sikes -- Alien Nation --  Fox Broadcasting --
===============================================================================




-------- TML Message #780 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 780
Subject: Hex mapping algorithm
Date: 15 Jan 90 09:35:34 PST (Mon)
From: jamesp



This article looks appropriate.  My policy is, in general, when someone
posts something to USENET news, it can be redistributed to the list
without explicit permission, as long as it remains completely intact.

- ------- Forwarded Message

From: Bertil Jonell

Hi!
I remember someone asked about algorithms for hex mapping a while back
There is a posting on that by Jon Watte (d88-jwa@nada.kth.se)
I repost it here and I hope he won't be mad at me (again :-) 

- - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Article 1220 of rec.games.programmer:
Path: mathrt0.math.chalmers.se!chalmers!sunic!draken!d88-jwa
From: d88-jwa@nada.kth.se (Jon Watte)
Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
Subject: Re: hex map
Message-ID: <2717@draken.nada.kth.se>
Date: 13 Jan 90 14:00:57 GMT
References: <157.25AEE023@metnet.FIDONET.ORG>
Reply-To: d88-jwa@nada.kth.se (Jon W{tte)
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
Lines: 96

In article <157.25AEE023@metnet.FIDONET.ORG> bwood@f54.n147.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Barry Wood) writes:
>A friend of mine is interested in any logarithms, etc that might help him 
				       ~~~~~~~~~~

Algorythms, I presume. (*I* don't have english for native language,
so don't blame my spelling)

2 minutes of thought yields:

A hex map can be represented in a plain 2d array. From now on I
presume you are familiar with hex numbering:

0000        0002        0004
      0001        0003
0100        0102        0104
      0101        0103
0200        0202        0204

etc.

One easily notes that every second column is half a hex lower
down. This is no problem; just raise it:

0000  0001  0002  0003  0004

0100  0101  0102  0103  0104

etc.

Now, to display this array (say, array[X_SIZ][Y_SIZ] of char)
you use the following function:

void
display(a)
char ** a;
{
	int x, y;

	for(y=0; y<Y_SIZ; x++) {
		for(x=0; x<X_SIZ; y++) {
			move(x, x&1 + y*2);
			addch(a[x][y]);
		}
	}
	refresh();
}

if move(x,y) moves x == column, y == row (curses is other way round)

Second problem, movement. Say you are in hex yyxx and want to go
in direction d where 0 = N, 1 = NE, 2 = SE etc. (North == up)
the quick & dirty solution is:

void
move(x, y, d)
int *x, *y, d;
{
	switch(d) {
	case 0:
		*y--;
		break;
	case 1:
		*y -= (*x &1) ? 0 : 1;
		*x++;
		break;
	case 2:
		*y += (*x &1);
		*x++;
		break;
	case 3:
		*y++;
		break;
	case 4:
		*y += (*x &1);
		*x--;
		break;
	case 5:
		*y -= (*x &1) ? 0 : 1;		
		*x--;
		break;
	default:
		/* Invalid move */
		;
	}
}

Of course, you'll want to check against movements running of
the map too... :-)

These functions do everything for you - it isn't any harder
than that !

h+
- - -- 
   ---  Stay alert !  -  Trust no one !  -  Keep your laser handy !  ---
             h+@nada.kth.se  ==  h+@proxxi.se  ==  Jon Watte
                    longer .sig available on request

- ------- End of Forwarded Message



-------- TML Message #781 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 781
Subject: Re: Where is Norris?
Date: 15 Jan 90 09:40:22 PST (Mon)
From: jamesp



> >1) PC's buy ship.  40-year loan.
> >2) Shortly afterwards, Referee destroys ship.
> >Is it:
> >3) Insurance pays off loan?    (i.e., "does such insurance exist?")

I agree with Greg Givler, but add that the insurance company is likely
to investigate the claim carefully.  This could add lots of
opportunities to foist bureaucracies and picky insurance officials on
the players.  Wonderful mini-adventure.  If the circumstances are
unusual enough, the characters may be bound up with haggling for months.



-------- TML Message #782 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 782
Subject: insurance
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 90 8:49:13 PST
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!tessi.UUCP!agora.hf.intel.com!richard@tektronix.TEK.COM (Richard Johnson)


Insurance companies are NOT going to let players get away
with anything.

1. Player buys (or leases) an expensive vehicle.
2. Vehicle is damaged or destroyed.
	(actually that was originally "Referee destroys..."
	 that's an "Act of God" and won't get covered.)

The insurance underwriter does not want to pay for a starship
that he (or she) cannot *guarantee* really was destroyed.  This
is hard to prove when communication is so poor.

The underwriter probably insisted on a clause that said he (or she)
would not pay if the ship was damaged or destroyed by an act of
war or piracy.

The underwrite will try with all of his (or her) might to show that
the ship was destroyed by the players' negiligence, lack of training,
or whatever.

The cost of even a really cheap starship makes a lot of fighting in
courts worthwhile.  Yes, the insurance is required by the lending 
institution and is payed each month with the mortgage, but that does
mean the players got a good underwriter.

Richard Johnson



-------- TML Message #783 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 783
From: ("45252-Peter L. Berghold") wrgate.wr.tek.com!uunet.uu.net!allegra!violin!plb@tektronix.TEK.COM
Subject: My mail path.
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 90 13:33:03 EST


One of the nodes in my inbound path for EMAIL has gone away!  If you want to 
send me EMAIL, the best ways to do it are as follows:

	1)  plb@violin.att.com

	2)  uunet!allegra!violin!plb

	3)  att!violin!plb


- -- 
/* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  */
/*		Peter L. Berghold					*/
/*		System Administrator					*/
/*		AT&T Red Hill Systems Administration Group		*/
/*		1F138	+1 (201) 615-4419				*/
/*		EMAIL (UUCP):	{uunet!allegra|att}!violin!plb		*/
/* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  */




-------- TML Message #784 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 784
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 90 17:02:47 EST
From: (Greg Givler - PA) givler@cbmvax.commodore.COM
Subject: Re: Where is Norris?


James Perkins writes:
>If the circumstances are
>unusual enough, the characters may be bound up with haggling for months.

I like it, it has all the good things that a Traveller GM needs,
underhandishness, sneaky and mean.

:-)

Greg





-------- TML Message #785 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 785
From: (Bertil Jonell) d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: insurance
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 90 12:55:24 MET DST


Richard Johnson writes:
> The insurance underwriter does not want to pay for a starship
> that he (or she) cannot *guarantee* really was destroyed.  This
> is hard to prove when communication is so poor.

Report on Damage: "Dear Hortalez-et-cie, Last wonday when my Free Trader "Noisy
Roamer" was parked on Regni starport, Regina/Spinward, It suddenly was attacked
by a large vicious building owned by the Regni Starport Authority...."

If the ship is big and valuable (name a ship that isn't :) the underwriter
would probably send out an investigation team to the site of the accident to
inspect the wreckage. (This is a great opportunity for adventures: The
underwriter is the Patron and the PC's the ones who are going to do the more-
or-less-covert investigation of a suspected MultiMegaCred insurance scam.)

If the insist on on-site inspections they would probably have a clause that
voids the insurance if the ship is taken out of Imperial Space. (If the under-
writer is a Mega, that is (Hortalez?). If it was insured by a sectorwide or
smaller they might even forbid travel outside one or more sectors.)
In any case: Redzones is a no-no. (and amber might be too, if the players have
settled for the really cheap insurance)

There probably is high-risk insurances for ships doing potentially dangerous
things (like trading in Corridor). But these tend to be *very* expensive and
would have to be payed separately.

> The cost of even a really cheap starship makes a lot of fighting in
> courts worthwhile.  Yes, the insurance is required by the lending 
> institution and is payed each month with the mortgage, but that does
> mean the players got a good underwriter.

Two additional questions:
How much of the total value would the underwriter pay?
and
These Scoutships... Any ideas on iiss policy regaring ex-scouts crashing 
scoutships? I would tend to the wiew that they would look through their
finger if the ship was smashed when it was doing things which was in the
interest of the iiss or the 3Imp. 
BTW "Look through their fingers" imply "not pressing charges", unless the
scout got nobled by the same mission it would probably  have been the last
scoutship that the iiss lent him/her/it.
If it was destroyed during some semi-legal stuff, he would probably be hit
over the head with a 29MCr fine (and perhaps a few years in the slammer)!


- -bertil-
- -- 
Bertil K K Jonell @ Chalmers University of Technology, Gothenburg
NET: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se 
VOICE: +46 31 723971 / +46 300 61004     "Don't worry,I've got Pilot-7"
SNAILMAIL: Box 154,S-43900 Onsala,SWEDEN      (Famous last words)      
"There's a sucker born every month, except february, which have 28!" Alf Tanner



-------- TML Message #786 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 786
From: (Bertil Jonell) d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Pulling out teeth with piano wire...
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 90 15:17:24 MET DST


James once used that phrase for describing the process of designing ships
for MegaT.

Here are some small notes that I'll hope will help people with their dental
work :-)

The dividing of starship components in %-components and tonnage-components
is old and have been rehashed many times in JTAS and TD. 
In essence it is an observation that certain components always take up an
certain % of the ship for a given performance. For example: A jump4 drive
always need 5% of the ship's volume (excluding fuel) regardless of the ships
volume.
The tonnage components is the components that have a fixed size (like
staterooms and turrets). A triple Beamlaser turret at TL13 will always have
an volume of 13.5kl regardless of if the ship is an Type S scout or an 
1,000,000 ton Experimental Battle Intruder.

The main %-components is the Jumpdrive, the Manueverdrive, the Lifesupport, and
to some extent, the Agility. (The agility is really shakey, see below)

In the data below, the volume of an component, the powerplant required to
power it and the fuel required to keep the plant happy for 30 days is added
to obtain a % of the ships volume that have to be dedicated to obtain the 
stated performance in a certain area.
For calculation purposes the powerplant is divided into parts grouped with the 
equippment the part powers. In the final design the powerplant is placed as a
unit, of course.

These examples is only correct for TL15 and for ships with total powerplants
over 14kl (and of course for MegaT). Inconsistencies between the components
and the "Total:" line comes from rounding errors.

Jump:
(the % includes the drive and the fuel required for one jump at max performance)

            Jump:   1     2     3     4     5     6 
                  -----------------------------------
            Drive:  2%    3%    4%    5%    6%    7%
            Fuel:  10%   15%   20%   25%   30%   35%
            Total: 12%   18%   24%   30%   36%   42%


>From this table one might learn that a Jump 6+6 ship is a distinct possibility.
It would need 7% for the drive and 70% for the fuel, and that would leave 23%
for everything else. Riftbreakers anyone?

Manuever:
(The % includes the drive, the part of the powerplant that's needed to power
the drive and the fuel needed to fuel that part of the powerplant for 30 days.

    Manuever:     1       2       3       4       5       6
               -------------------------------------------------
    Drive:       2.0%    5.0%    8.0%   11.0%   14.0%   17.0%
    Powerplant:  0.6%    1.4%    2.3%    3.2%    4.0%    4.9%
    Fuel:        3.7%    9.3%   14.9%   20.5%   26.1%   31.7%
    Total:       6.3%   15.8%   25.2%   34.7%   44.2%   53.6%

Note that if you want a Jump6 6Gee ship with 30 days endurance you need to
dedicate 95.6% of the hull to plants, drives and fuel!!

Environment:
(The % includes basic env, basic life-support, extended life-support, grav
plates, inertial compensators,  the part of the powerplant that's required
to power it and fuel to fuel that part of the powerplant for 30 days)

    Components:  3.3%
    Powerplant:  0.4%
    Fuel:        2.7%
    Total:       6.4%

This means that for a given hull you can only use 95.6% for useful components 
(useful for other things that keeping the crew alive, that is). The environent
% can be reduced by various strategies, such as not installing grav and inertial
compensators for the fueltanks. That will lead to problems with getting a smooth
feed from the tanks to the jumpdrive if you have engaged in any acrobatics
(used agility, turned the ship etc) during the rounds before the jump.
(The fuel will be sloshing around like nuts, and baffles is only effective to
a certain degree.)

Agility:
(The % includes the part of the powerplant that's neccesary to obtain the
required extra power to achieve the given agility and the fuel to fuel that
powerplant for 30 days).
The Agility is the most unpredictable characteristic of a ship. It is dependent
on the ships unloaded weight and the excess powerplant output.
The data below assumes that the ship has an average density of 1 ton/kl.
The density of ships varies from around 0.5 for a bulk cargo ship to around 2
for a heavily armored SDB. Large drives, powerplant, or any amount of armour
tend to raise the density and large cargoholds or fueltanks tend to lower it.
The Density for unarmored combatships is around 0.9 to 1.2
This table will give atleast an approximation of the investment in volume needed
to achieve a certain given agility.

     Agility:      1       2       3       4       5       6
                -------------------------------------------------
     Powerplant:  1.0%    2.1%    3.1%    4.1%    5.1%    6.2%
     Fuel:        6.7%   13.3%   20.0%   26.7%   33.3%   40.0%
     Total:       7.7%   15.4%   23.1%   30.8%   38.4%   46.2%


Well then: How is all this data used? 
You add together all the tonnage-components (weapons, cargo, subcrafts, state-
rooms and computer etc and the powerplant and fuel for all of this). Then
you compute how much % of the hull is needed to achieve the needed performace.
Divide the tonnage of the tonnage components by this percentage to get the
hullsize. Choose the next larger hull to ensure place for electronics, crew,
sensors, and controls. Design and adjust until it works.
Lets say that you want to design a longhaul cargoship that can transport
20,000 kl of cargo and performs at jump4 and 1Gee (no agility).
The Environment requires 6.4%, Jump4 needs 30%, 1Gee needs 6.3% for a 
total of 42.7%. 
We guess that the crew will be around 10 persons, 10*54=540kl, no weapons,
no subcrafts, Model4 computer: 33kl for a total of 20573kl.
20573/0.427=48180 kl total volume. A 4000 hull (54000kl) seems about right 
and also leaves extra room for electronics, crew, sensors and controls.


- -bertil-
- -- 
Bertil K K Jonell @ Chalmers University of Technology, Gothenburg
NET: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se 
VOICE: +46 31 723971 / +46 300 61004     "Don't worry,I've got Pilot-7"
SNAILMAIL: Box 154,S-43900 Onsala,SWEDEN      (Famous last words)      
"There's a sucker born every month, except february, which have 28!" Alf Tanner



-------- TML Message #787 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 787
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!reed.UUCP!oresoft.uu.net!richard@tektronix.TEK.COM (Richard Johnson)
Subject: Anyone for adventure?
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 90 12:15:48 PDT


Anyone out there care to participate in a play-by-email adventure?

I think I can wrest a little time from my schedule to moderate, if
people would like to play...

If possible, I'd like to try to run the adventure (campaign if it
goes that far) double blind.  That is, players mail the characters'
actions in, I try to decode the overall effect, and then post the
publicly visible result.  Communication between characters is OK,
too, if I get a copy. (Referees are notorious busybodies.)

I'm not sure yet whether to have pre-generated characters, or to
have players use their own.

Public feedback on the list until we decide if this is going to
happen, please.

You can reach me at:

richard@oresoft.uu.net	 	 uunet!oresoft!richard
or
richard@agora.hf.intel.com  ...tektronix!intelhf!tessi!agora!richard

Try the Oregon Software adress first, I'm here more.
	Richard




-------- TML Message #788 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 788
From: ("Brent L. Woods") woodsb@gn.ecn.purdue.edu
Subject: Insurance and Scout Ships
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 90 17:11:26 EST



 In message: <9001171155.AA03254@ranko.cd.chalmers.se> Bertil Jonell writes:
 >
 >Richard Johnson writes:
 >> The insurance underwriter does not want to pay for a starship
 >> that he (or she) cannot *guarantee* really was destroyed.  This
 >> is hard to prove when communication is so poor.
 >
 >Report on Damage: "Dear Hortalez-et-cie, Last wonday when my Free Trader
 >"Noisy Roamer" was parked on Regni starport, Regina/Spinward, It suddenly
 >was attacked by a large vicious building owned by the Regni Starport
 >Authority...."
 >
 >If the ship is big and valuable (name a ship that isn't :) the underwriter
 >would probably send out an investigation team to the site of the accident to
 >inspect the wreckage. (This is a great opportunity for adventures: The
 >underwriter is the Patron and the PC's the ones who are going to do the more-
 >or-less-covert investigation of a suspected MultiMegaCred insurance scam.)

     Hey, if someone told me that their ship had been attacked by a
*building*, I'd be suspicious too.  :-)  Really, I think it would
tend to depend on what *type* of ship was involved.  An armed merchant
would, I think, have a somewhat lower premium than an unarmed one,
conditions being what they are these days, since it would be able to
fight back, and thus provide a deterrent to attack by Var...ah,
pirates...  :-)

     At the same time, the insurance problem is probably having at least
as much of an effect on interstellar commerce as, ah, the "current
unpleasantness."  The underwriters have probably marked off large sections
of territory as "too dangerous; go there and void your policy."  A
prudent Captain just won't go there, since he can't afford to lose his
current underwriting.  Why?  Well, insurance policies usually have ceilings
on how high the premiums can go, so most of the existing policies (at
least, those that predate the assassination) are probably running at
bargain-basement rates (at least, by current standards).  If a Captain
loses one of these policies, he would have two problems:  1) the new rates
for a new policy would be enough higher than his old one that they would
seriously impact his revenues (perhaps enough to slowly bankrupt a free
merchant on a marginal route), and 2) he obviosly did something dangerous
(like going into the wrong subsector) or some such thing to convince his
old underwriter to terminate his policy.  It's going to be *very*
difficult for him to find a new underwriter under those circumstances,
and give an added boost to his new rates if he does manage to find one.

 >Two additional questions:
 >How much of the total value would the underwriter pay?

     In most cases I'm sure they would pay the current market value of
the ship.  That's what happened to me when my old car got totalled--I
received the current cost of my old car (an '80 Mustang).  I had to add
some of my own money to that to get a new car (well, newER).

     That would be a problem--the ex-owner would need a new loan to
get a replacement ship, in a lot of cases (I'm sure used ships are
selling at a premium, these days).  Unfortunately, losing your old
one would tend to make you a poor risk...

 >These Scoutships... Any ideas on iiss policy regaring ex-scouts crashing 
 >scoutships?

     Depends on what else gets wrecked in the crash.  The ships that are
released to detached duty are getting near the end of their service
lives in the first place.  If just the ship is wrecked, I think the IISS
would tend to say, "Oh well.  Write the ship off."  However, if there was
a substantial amount of property damage as well (like, say, crashing into
a fuel tank farm sited next to a residential area) as possible loss of
life, the IISS would throw the ex-Scout to the local wolves as well as
slapping him with a massive lien themselves.


- --
     Brent

INTERNET:  woodsb@gn.ecn.purdue.edu  /  woodsb@attctc.dallas.tx.us
USENET:  pur-ee!gn.ecn.purdue.edu!woodsb
FIDONET:  Brent.Woods@p303.f40.n201.z1.fidonet.org  (from Internet)  or
          Brent Woods@1:201/40.303  (from FidoNet)
USNAIL:  320 Brown St., #406  /  W. Laf., IN  47906
PHONE:  +1 (317) 743-8421 (voice)



-------- TML Message #789 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 789
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 90 09:55:25 CST
From: (Jim Cunningham) jcunning@gsliss.lis.uiuc.edu
Subject: PBM ideas




Play be mail sounds most interesting. I have done it several times with
board wargames (including Fifth Frontier War) with friends who have
scattered accross the country over the years. It's great fun.

Idea for PBM: Journal 15 (I think) has an interesting article on starship
reposessors. I've always thought that this would be interesting for a
mail game, with one person/group being the people who stole the ship
and the other person/group the reposessor. I'm up for it. What do you
folks think?

			Jim Cunningham
			Traveller Relic





-------- TML Message #790 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 790
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 90 14:36:42 MST
From: (SULAIMAN) asulaima@udenva.cair.du.edu
Subject: MT ship combat




	Has anyone out there really used the MT space combat system.
If so I have a few questions that I would like answered. 
	1. How do you handle Sensor Tasks. The rules say only one task is
	free next costs one battery of fire. It seems to imply that there
	is no point in having fighters or 100 t ships they only have one
	battery most of the time. As Fire requires two tasks, Scan+Pin
	it seems to be flawed.
I'm reading this as one SET of scans. Each set being Scan+Pin. Other option 
being that Scans are being done routinely and don't cost anything. 1st Pinpoint
is free, 2nd Pinpoint cost one battery and so on.

	2. What about engaging multiple contacts. How do u scan for and engage
	more than one target. A 400t warship probably has 4 batteries and 
	if it thinks it can engage and destroy 4 fighters shouldn't it be able
	to? As it is it will need a pinpoint for each fighter that means at best
	it will engage 2 fighters with one battery passed over and one firing
	defensively.

	3. I have mixed feelings on the rule that says that u have to roll
	again if target has moved 1 or more hexes/squares. Even if a square is
	25000 km.

	4. I disagree heavily with the move system in which u can choose any
	speed less than max and any direction every turn. At slow velocities 
	yes but a 1G ship going 750,000 kph going in one direction should
	not be able to in the next combat round to go 750,000kph in the other
	direction evn when allowing for 3D effects. In game terms thats a speed
	of 25 squares/hexes I think. 
I have been working on a very simple(and probably nonrealistic) turn mode 
system with mods for agility and pilot skill.

	5. How do you handle Ship'sTurret Weapon Skill. Rules say replace
	Comp Mod or Wpn Mod by Skill but If your ship has anything over a 
	Model 3 and a decent UCP factor High Gunnery Skill is meaningless.
I have been thinking of using the HighGuard version: every 2 levels of skill
over 1 give u a beneficial +/- 1 mod. Use for Pilot skill too.


Ameer Z. Sulaiman




-------- TML Message #791 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 791
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 90 14:47:23 MST
From: (SULAIMAN) asulaima@udenva.cair.du.edu
Subject: Fifth Frontier War.



	Just a rough survey of the game.
- -How many people have played it.
- -How long did it run? Real time and play time
- -Results?
- -Any interesting house rules?
- -Comments.

	Ameer Z. Sulaiman



-------- TML Message #792 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 792
From: ("Mark F. Cook") markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.COM
Subject: Re: Traveller E-PBM
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 90 14:26:59 PST


I've never tried any of the PBM games discussed on Notes, since none of
them really interested me.  This, however, sounds like something more
my speed.  I think it might be a kick.

Just for the sake of consistancy, I think we might want to take Richard
up on his offer to pre-generate characters.  This would help the beginners,
like me, mesh with you more experienced folks.

If a PBM game does start up, count me in!

        Mark F. Cook

USMail: User Interface Technical Support
        Hewlett-Packard - Interface Technology Operation
        1000 NE Circle Blvd.  Corvallis, OR 97330

INTERNET: markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
UUCP:     {cmcl2, harpo, hplabs, rice, tektronix}!hp-pcd!markc



-------- TML Message #793 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 793
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 90 22:20 EST
From: (Bob Mahoney) BOBMAH%PSC.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: PBEM game


Well, in case Richard didn't get the message I sent him, I'm up for it!

Sounds like fun.  Besides, all I ever get to do these days is ref.  It would be
nice to play!

- -Bob
                                  ..
- ---------------------------------m--m-----------------------------------------
Bob Mahoney        Plymouth State College Computer Services, Plymouth NH 03264
Network Manager/Postmaster    BITNET: BOBMAH@PSC.BITNET   UUCP: rem@psc90.UUCP




-------- TML Message #794 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 794
From: (Adrian Hurt) adrian%cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Fifth Frontier War
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 90 9:59:39 BST



Ameer Z. Sulaiman writes:

> 	Just a rough survey of the game.
> -How many people have played it.
> -How long did it run? Real time and play time
> -Results?
> -Any interesting house rules?
> -Comments.

Two people played.

I can't remember how long it took in real time; in game time, I have not seen
a game go beyond the second year.  And even before then, the Imperium was
winning; we extended the game for curiosity, to see what would happen.  If it
had gone on till 1111, like the "official" version, there would have been no
Zhodani presence in the Spinward Marches, with the exception of Riverworld and
maybe Cronor.  It is just about impossible to do any damage to the immense
number of SDB's present there.

One rule I tried was to allow scout squadrons to be attacked using the
bombardment factor, rather than the attack factor.  The assumption was that the
attack factor represents major weapons (spinal mounts, and possibly bays); the
bombardment factor represents turrets, and maybe bays.  It would be these
bombardment weapons which would be used against the small scout ships.  The
real reason was, it seemed stupid when an Imperial scout squadron met a Zhodani
scout squadron and all they could do was make rude gestures at each other.

The Sword Worlds didn't tend to live long.  On turn 6, the Imperials get their
Rimward Forces reinforcements.  The book says they can be brought in on that
turn or any later turn; I bring them all in at once, hopefully with an admiral
with plotting factor 0, and they go and flatten the Sword Worlds invaders,
followed by the Sword Worlds themselves.

There is one Imperial admiral who usually ends up winning the war.  He has
plotting factor 0, tactical factor +3.  Unfortunately for the press who might
want to make a hero of him, his name is Goolanzoon.  There is a similar Zhodani
admiral, but their names all sound weird to us Imperials anyway.  By contrast,
the two supreme commanders have plotting factor 4, tactical factor -1 - they
are a liability to any fleet saddled with them!  They usually get dumped on
some out of the way world, so no fleet has to visit them and get taken over.

 "Keyboard? How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk



-------- TML Message #795 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 795
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 90 11:51:19 EST
From: (Frobozz) wrgate.wr.tek.com!uunet.uu.net!munnari!eldritch.hss.bu.oz.au!grue@tektronix.TEK.COM
Subject: Re: Anyone for adventure?


hiya,

Count me in any play by email adventure. I'd simply love to play.

I'm also willing to comment about any ideas put forward. I tried to figure
out how to run a trillion credit squadron campaign by e-mail.  The big problem
we came up with was how to adequately run combat without turning it too
simplistic.

Running the adventure double blind would be the most entertaining but it
would involve a lot of work for the moderator.

							Paul
seeya
SNIF

Language Centre              internet    : grue@lance.hss.bu.oz{.au}
Bond University              JANET       : grue%lance.hss.bu.oz@uk.ac.ukc
Gold Coast, Qld 4229         ARPA, bitnet: grue%lance.hss.bu.oz.au@uunet.uu.net
Australia                    UUCP        : ..!uunet!munnari!lance.hss.bu.oz!grue



-------- TML Message #796 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 796
From: ("45252-Peter L. Berghold") wrgate.wr.tek.com!uunet.uu.net!allegra!violin!plb@tektronix.TEK.COM
Subject: Re: PBM ideas
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 90 8:08:35 EST


>> Idea for PBM: Journal 15 (I think) has an interesting article on starship
>> reposessors. I've always thought that this would be interesting for a
>> mail game, with one person/group being the people who stole the ship
>> and the other person/group the reposessor. I'm up for it. What do you
>> folks think?
>> 

Sounds like a job for the Armagedon Industries Special Financial Loss
Recovery Team to me!

;-}

- -- 
/* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  */
/*		Peter L. Berghold					*/
/*		System Administrator					*/
/*		AT&T Red Hill Systems Administration Group		*/
/*		1F138	+1 (201) 615-4419				*/
/*		EMAIL (UUCP):	{uunet!allegra|att}!violin!plb		*/
/*                                                                      */
/*  UPP: 87AA77   Computer 3  Cuisine 3  Combat Rifleman 3  Pistol 1    */
/*                Electronics 2 Wheeled Vehicle 2                       */
/* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  */




-------- TML Message #797 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 797
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 90 19:43 EST
From: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Subject: RE: PBM ideas


[This came to jamesp@dadla.wr.tek.com, looks like it was meant for
traveller@dadla.wr.tek.com.  Watch those automatic reply headers! -- James]

PBM? Well....

I'm thinking it over. I normally avoid PBM like the plague, but with this
bunch it might be worth trying. 

As for what sort of adventure: A repo scenario might not be bad, and it
would certainly be easy enough to get a starmerc story going, too. I, on
the other hand, enjoy high finance, car chases, and the occasional "whit
whit whit" of a subsonic Gauss pistol from a dark alley. Heh. lots of serious 
headscratching and mystery solving is also a nice touch; kneejerk reactions
involving nuclear weapons have their place, but there are more subtle ways of 
dealing with one's troubles.

Where would it take place, and when? The Solomani Rim as the Rebellion really 
gets cooking (1118 or so) is where my own campaign is currently situated, but 
I suppose the Marches are the best known area for most....

[Oh, by the way, folx: I'm not back from Tenessee, nor will I be for a couple 
more weeks. I've just discovered remote logins. Yippee!]

Back amongst ye,
Thy historian of all things Travellerish,

metlay

PS: What I do NOT like is even easier to sketch out: Overpowered parties
(overpwered villains are fine). People running aliens who act out of character 
("well, he's a K'Kree warrior with a STR of 25 and he likes to be left alone 
and eat hamburgers. What's wrong with that?"). And, my most pet peeve of all, 
the one thing I have never seen run or played well in this game: Psionics 
(Take your pick: either "Oh, he can't sneak up on me, I'm reading his mind" or 
"You mean this guy I've been running with for a game year is a psi? Geez, I 
really feel bad about this, but I blow him away when his back's turned.").
Sigh...

PPS. I haven't much to add on the insurance question, other than to point
out that people had better come up with a more forgiving scenario for the
finance and underwriting of starships, even before Doolie wasted Stref with a 
quick one to the ole cardiac, or I can easily demonstrate that it would be 
economically impossible for anyone other than a planetary or larger government 
to own or operate a starship, period. I would like to answer the other 
question posed in the original posting, though: since the Archdukedom carries 
with it no additional enfiefment, and the fact that the Archduchy of Deneb has 
not had an Archduke for centuries (neither did the others, until Stref brought 
them back, but he never named an Archduke for Deneb), I find it highly 
unlikely that Norris would relocate himself to Deneb upon ascending to 
the Archdukedom. When he's not travelling about his domain, putting out 
brushfire wars and screaming at the Lakht Aorlakht, he's almost certainly at 
home sweet home on Regina, or on his ancillary lands in Yori.

PPPS. There may be another chapter in the story of Grant and CO. in the works, 
but we'll have to see....

anyway, it's nice to be back.

ciao!



-------- TML Message #798 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 798
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 90 09:09:12 +0100
From: yngve@tigger.softlab.se (Yngve Larsson)
Subject: Re:  Fifth Frontier War.


[This came to traveller-request@dadla.wr.tek.com, looks like it was
meant for traveller@dadla.wr.tek.com.  Watch those automatic reply
headers! -- James]

I have played it twice with friends.
We played for 6 and 8 hours, approx. 10-12 turns if I remember correctly.
We never achieved a decisive outcome, but I think the Imperial side looked
good.
We tried to play by the book, even the rule that makes TankRons almost
impossible to use, unless you sacrifice them.
I like it very much, but have too few traveller-fanatic friends.

		Yngve Larsson



-------- TML Message #799 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 799
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 90 12:09:48 MST
From: ("Jan L. Peterson") jlp@hamblin.byu.edu
Subject: RE: PBEM


I also am interested in playing.  I havn't played trav in at least 5
years and I've never played MT, so I may be a little rusty on rules,
but I'm interested.

	-jan-
- --
        Jan L. Peterson
EMail:  jlp@hamblin.byu.edu  or  uunet!hamblin.byu.edu!jlp
Mail:   Math Dept. -- 292 TMCB; BYU; Provo, UT 84602 (USA)
Phone:  +1 801 378 2183




-------- TML Message #800 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 800
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 90 12:40 PST
From: SELLSWORTH@hmcvax.claremont.edu ("Scott, part time fuzzy")
Subject: Starship design revamping


Accursed editor!  I have a bad feeling that this is going straight to James,
and not the list.  I also bet that it used the wrong subject.  Sigh.

[Yep, it did.  I spell-checked it, put a meaningful subject line on,
and resent it for you.  I'd rather people send something, anything, to
me, rather than stay quiet out of fear of administrator wrath.  What I
mean to say is, thanks everyone for the contributions! -- James]

  I have started work (slowly) on revising the traveller rules to more
accurately reflect real world physics in their starship design sequences. 
While it is true that I have not the foggiest idea how much fuel a fusion plant
takes, I would bet it is a lot closer to the gurps statement (The plant
includes fuel for 200 years of straight operation; longer than the designers
expect the plant to last) than the traveller conception (A fusion plant may get
as low as about a thousand miles to the gallon.)  As a result, I am shifting
some percentages about some. Here are the axioms I hope to work under:

  1.  Space is taken up separately for power, locomotion, stardrive, agility,
life support, and living space.  These represent the lion's share of the ships
initial volume in many cases.  Power plant fuel is trivial for fission, fusion,
and antimatter (in effect).  Jump drive fuel may not be, if the ship needs to
bleed it off as reaction mass as they travel through Jump space.  Manuever fuel
is mostly used for heat sinking.  The thrusters themselves are reactionless,
but the ship needs to blow off immense amounts of mass to move.  Otherwise, the
numbers make no sense at all.

  Most of the "fuel" used for increased agility and for life support power I am
assuming is used as reaction mass for small thrusters in the first case, and as
raw materials in the second.  If fusion is good enough, one could synthesize
many basic raw materials out of the plasma.  I would bet that TL15 fusion is
that controllable, and possibly earlier types as well.

  2.  The primary limit on a ships capacity is volume.

  3.  Computers are so fantastically adept by the end of TL8 that they can do
just about anything.  The need for controls and control panels is to display
information to the human operators.  Their whole function in life is not to do
the small stuff, but to do the risky maneuvers.  This is why a low engineering
skill does not matter much, while a high one does.

  4.  Anyone with a ship, no matter how bad, is wealthy.  It has a power plant
to power a small city, enough resources to outdo a basic machine shop, and
more computing capacity than the NSA.

  I will get some hard numbers for this, possibly using the neat set of
percentages of hull volume worked out by a net compatriot a few days ago.  (I
do not have my mail folder with me, so I can't give proper credit.  It was
posted to the list.)

  I will also let you know on how the "equipment by tech level" chart works
out.  It is coming along slowly. but I have a few items worked out.  I warn
you, I wandered rather far from the tech levels posted in the traveller books
when talking about computers and materials.  The rule is that each tech level
about doubles what came the tech level before.  I also rule that a tech level
is about fifty years of uninterrupted progress.

  See y'all.  Any suggestions about technical problems in the traveller rules
would be appreciated, as long as I am a-fixing.

  Thanks much

  Scott Ellsworth
  sellswor@jarthur.claremont.edu
  SELLSWORTH@HMCVAX



-------- TML Message #801 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 801
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 90 17:07:57 -0500
From: (wilson m liaw) macgyver@cis.ohio-state.edu
Subject: PBM Game.



	Count me in, I am very interested.

				Mac
Wilson "Mac" Liaw                    | If you put your mind to it, you can 
Internet:macgyver@cis.ohio-state.edu | acomplish anything. 
=====================================|      - Marty McFly, Back To The Future 
Disclaimer:All opinions are mine only|-----------------------------------------






-------- TML Message #802 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 802
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!reed.UUCP!oresoft.uu.net!richard@tektronix.TEK.COM (Richard Johnson)
Subject: re: adventuring
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 90 13:16:23 PDT


Already there are seven who have indicated desire to participate in
the Play-by-Email adventure.  If your unsure if you want to do this,
GIVE IT A TRY!  We can always kill your character later :)

We're currently straightening out mail paths and so forth.  I'd like
to get the preliminaries out of the way soon so we can start about
the Beginning of February.

This will undoubtedly be a MT variant; I don't know the rules well
enough to enforce them strictly at a table.  I'm not even going to
try that by electronic fiat.  Instead, this will be pretty free-form
until we get the hang of it.

Turns sould be about once each week, and I'll just post the general
stuff on this list.  Private stuff will be private - and I'm not
giving out the addresses of the other players, so if you want to
plan subterfuge with another character mail to me and I'll forward
it.

Feel free to use your own characters.  I'm easy, but one of my pet
peeves is "character inflation".  Use your own judgment.

If there are any more general questions, I'll answer publicly.
If anyone has a *particular* kind of adventure they want - something
their favorite journalist has always wanted to investigate, or
whatever, I'll listen.

Finally, for this adventure, I'll keep it local to the list (even
though there has been some feedback about interest from
rec.games.frp).  Mainly I want to make sure I can handle the load of
this before I expand.
	Richard




-------- TML Message #803 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 803
Subject: Play By Mail
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 90 16:49:50 MST
From: rona@hpdml92.hp.COM


  REPO-MAN IN SPACE sounds fun!  If there's still room, I'd like
to get in on it.

  I think that pre-generated characters would be best.


        Ron Abramson   email: rona@hpdml92.HP.COM
                      tel: 1-208-323-4293




-------- TML Message #804 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 804
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 90 19:45 EST
From: (Bob Mahoney) BOBMAH%PSC.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: I Like Psi, and Why


Metlay, on the proposed PBE-M:

>"...kneejerk reactions involving nuclear weapons have their place, but..."

Ah- let's play at Metlay's...  I just got my place clean.

>Where would it take place, and when? The Solomani Rim as the Rebellion really
>gets cooking (1118 or so) is where my own campaign is currently situated, but
>I suppose the Marches are the best known area for most....

There was a great sector map of the Hinterworlds in _Challenge_ 39.  Subsector
maps, library data...  Nice.  That's my vote.  My own campaign is in the
Marches, and life is confusing enough.  I could have a Xerox-attack, if we all
agreed to consider it 'fair use'.

>[Oh, by the way, folx: I'm not back from Tenessee, nor will I be for a couple
>more weeks. I've just discovered remote logins. Yippee!]

Still in New Hampshire...  :)

>PS: What I do NOT like is even easier to sketch out: Overpowered parties
>(overpwered villains are fine). People running aliens who act out of character
>("well, he's a K'Kree warrior with a STR of 25 and he likes to be left alone
>and eat hamburgers. What's wrong with that?"). And, my most pet peeve of all,
>the one thing I have never seen run or played well in this game: Psionics
>(Take your pick: either "Oh, he can't sneak up on me, I'm reading his mind" or
>"You mean this guy I've been running with for a game year is a psi? Geez, I
>really feel bad about this, but I blow him away when his back's turned.").
>Sigh...

Oh, I protest!

I ran a long-term AD&D campaign (11 *real* years, at least for three of us!) in
which psionics were a favorite plot thread.  Not overpowered, not invincible.
It was the most dramatic, most mature (in both game and behavioral terms) and
most interesting part of that campaign.  Yes, Psi can get out of hand if you
are careless (or just unprepared).  But the depth of that campaign was amazing.
Those players still talk about reviving that game when we need a *rest* from
Traveller.  (Maybe in another 11 years?)

My current campaign has psionic plot threads, although it's been two game years
so far, and noone has picked up on it.  I have great hopes for this campaign
now that all the players have a good grasp of the rules (well, pretty good).

Is anyone else using Psionics in their Traveller game?  What sorts of things
are you doing, and do you have actively psionic players?

>PPPS. There may be another chapter in the story of Grant and CO. in the works,
>but we'll have to see....

Well, we want to see it when it's ready.  No hurry.  Finish your lunch first.

>anyway, it's nice to be back.

Hey, Good to have you.

                ..
- ---------------m--m-----------------
Bob Mahoney        bobmah@psc.bitnet



-------- TML Message #805 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 805
From: ("Mark F. Cook") markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.COM
Subject: Wanted: 1 Imperial Atlas
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 90 17:11:14 PST


Fellow Travellers, I have a problem.  I'm new to the game (less than a
year) and am playing MegaTraveller (as classic Traveller refs. are scarce
these days).  My dilemma is that none of the MegaTraveller products detail
the entire Imperial (at least from the map standpoint).  I see from the
archives, however, that classic Traveller included something called, "Atlas
of the Imperium", which sounds like exactly what I'm looking for.

Are these still published?  If not, does MegaTraveller have something
comparable?  I need the bigger picture.

Thanks in advance,

        Mark F. Cook

USMail: User Interface Technical Support
        Hewlett-Packard - Interface Technology Operation
        1000 NE Circle Blvd.  Corvallis, OR 97330

INTERNET: markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
UUCP:     {cmcl2, harpo, hplabs, rice, tektronix}!hp-pcd!markc



-------- TML Message #806 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 806
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 90 19:22:00 EST
From: HOBBIT@ac.dal.ca
Subject: PBeM game


I've never actually played Traveller or MegaT (gasp!), but mostly because when
I started looking for a good sf game, I found 2300AD (was Traveller: 2300 then)
first.  So I'm tolerably familiar with the task system and the mechanics,
excepting anything that's different between the two systems--I think there's a
few things--but I'm not too familiar with the setting.  With that out of the way
   I'd be very interested in joining a PBeM game.  Sounds like fun.

     the hobbit (I know it's fantasy.  give me a break :-)

         "The meek shall inherit the Earth.
           The rest of us get the Stars."



-------- TML Message #807 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 807
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 90 15:26:51 EST
From: (Greg Givler - PA) givler@cbmvax.commodore.COM
Subject: Re:  Fifth Frontier War.



	Just a rough survey of the game.
>-How long did it run? Real time and play time

	I have only played the game a couple of times and both times we 
	never finished. I remember that setup took quite some time. But
	the rules were fairly simple and easy to play. 

>-Results?

	I the beginning if you are the Zhodane, you should have big successes
	I had invaded Rhylanor very early. But about midgame when the Imps 
	get their regular Batrons in to the area you will have a time of it.

	As an Imperial, be prepared to lose alot in the beginning. The colonial
	fleets are to backward to really stand well in line of battle. But
	once the Coreward fleets get in the picture, be ready to Kick Ass!

>-Comments.

	I really enjoyed it although it took a while to play. As I said earlier
	I thought that the rules never got in the way of the enjoyment. 
	so although I have never purchased the game, I have considered 	
	purchasing the game serveral times. That statement in itself says
	alot for the game as the only Wargames that I own and play regularly,
	which means more than once a year, are Wooden Ships and Iron Men,
	which is my favorite game ever, and Gettysburg, I live less than
	three hours from the battlefield and have been over it foot by foot
	hundreds of times. All in all I give it 4 out of 5 stars. I had wished
	that GDW had come out with a generic large scale wargame for Traveller
	for those GM's, like myself whose universe was not the Spinward
	Marches or the Solomani Rim. I had two small space empires that I want
	to go to war, but designing a Trillion Credit Squadron Game was a bit
	to large a project and would have taken days to resolve instead of 
	hours.

	Greg
	
>	Ameer Z. Sulaiman

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Givler                        | Q-Link: GregGivler
Analyst - Systems Evaluation Group | CompuServe: Greg Givler 76702,647
Commodore Product Assurance        | GEnie: G.Givler
215-431-9100                       | The NET: givler@cbmvax.commodore.com
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Wild Whores couldn't keep me away!" -- George Francisco
"That's Horses, George" -- Matt Sikes -- Alien Nation --  Fox Broadcasting --
===============================================================================




-------- TML Message #808 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 808
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 90 15:10:34 EST
From: (Greg Givler - PA) givler@cbmvax.commodore.COM
Subject: Re:  PBM ideas



Hmmm.... Fifth Frontier War by mail, that seems interesting, do you remember
the details. Like how were the die rolls determined and such, I think that
would be interesting.

Greg




-------- TML Message #809 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 809
From: (Bertil Jonell) d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: MT ship combat
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 90 13:12:19 MET DST


> 	Has anyone out there really used the MT space combat system.
> If so I have a few questions that I would like answered. 
> 	1. How do you handle Sensor Tasks. The rules say only one task is
> 	free next costs one battery of fire. It seems to imply that there
> 	is no point in having fighters or 100 t ships they only have one
> 	battery most of the time. As Fire requires two tasks, Scan+Pin
> 	it seems to be flawed.
> I'm reading this as one SET of scans. Each set being Scan+Pin. Other option 
> being that Scans are being done routinely and don't cost anything. 1st Pinpoint
> is free, 2nd Pinpoint cost one battery and so on.

Well, In Real Life(tm) naval combat a lockon (pinpoint) is in effect until
volountarily broken or broken by the target by heavy manuevering, electronic
countermeasures, or decoys etc.

Disclaimer: All I know about Real Life(tm) naval combat I've learned from 
Harpoon II, Jane's Fighting Ships, and a book about electronic warfare.

In Traveller terms I guess this would be translated to that a pinpoint is in
effect until the target has made a task to break it (Max once per turn)
(suggested DM's, Pilotskill, Agility, computerlevels, ECM)
The *number* of simultaneous lockons is the real limitation. 
A suggested limit is equalt to the computer number. Model1 or 1bis => 1 lockon
at a time, a Model9 could have 9 simultaneous lockons.

The rules about 1 free sensor task and 1 per battery I would leave alone.
If this was combined with the above changes, It would lead to that a small
ship is forced to spend several turnes to locate and fire upon an opponent.
But a large ship could still not pinpoint several hundred targets and blow
them off the face of space. I believe this is in the interest of game-balance.

- -bertil-
- -- 
Bertil K K Jonell @ Chalmers University of Technology, Gothenburg
NET: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se 
VOICE: +46 31 723971 / +46 300 61004     "Don't worry,I've got Pilot-7"
SNAILMAIL: Box 154,S-43900 Onsala,SWEDEN      (Famous last words)      
"GOOD DEEL ON SLIGHTLY USED CRANE" Orson Scott Card 'The Abyss'



-------- TML Message #810 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 810
From: (Bertil Jonell) d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: re: adventuring
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 90 13:20:14 MET DST


> Already there are seven who have indicated desire to participate in
> the Play-by-Email adventure.  If your unsure if you want to do this,
> GIVE IT A TRY!  We can always kill your character later :)

Count me in!
There is just one problem, though. When I try to mail you the mail bounce...
<Big embarrassed grin> While I realize that this might be a problem for 
a PBeM, I still hope that there is some way (some path) around it.

- -bertil-
- -- 
Bertil K K Jonell @ Chalmers University of Technology, Gothenburg
NET: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se 
VOICE: +46 31 723971 / +46 300 61004     "Don't worry,I've got Pilot-7"
SNAILMAIL: Box 154,S-43900 Onsala,SWEDEN      (Famous last words)      
"GOOD DEEL ON SLIGHTLY USED CRANE" Orson Scott Card 'The Abyss'



-------- TML Message #811 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 811
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 90 12:55:17 EST
From: (Chris Bartlett) cdba_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
Subject: Re: PBEM



Hi.  Someone said something about play-by-E-mail?  If there's still space,
I'd be very interested in playing.  There's no one around here to play MT
face to face with anyway...

Clear skies,

Chris




-------- TML Message #812 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 812
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 90 13:16 EST
From: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Subject: Richard's PBEM game



Count me in, richard. But a few questions/comments:

1. I think your enforcing a freeform game is of vital importance. Rules
lawyering plus mai delay equals dead game. I, for one, do not plan to rgue
any decisions you render, although I do reserve the right to complain
(privately) if and when someone who knows better does or says something
that's inconsistent with the Traveller universe.

2. I also agree with your decision to limit the game to the TML. I'd also
recommend placing a ceiling on the number of players, and on the number of
characters (pref. 1 to a player).

3. One area in which I will raise a voice of dissent, tho: the choice of
characters belonging to the players already. Before I can choose an
appropriate character I need to know the level of experience, wealth and
power the party will have, and where the campaign will take place. An
adventure for a group of thirty-year-olds is very different from one for
a group of fifty-year-olds; the latter usually have much less stamina and
brawn, but have ridiculously high skill tallies. I personally prefer 
running characters/parties that are down on their luck and looking for a
way out of financial troubles, but if I'm to be running with nobles who
own their own navies I'm not going to pick a pauper for my character. 
And so on. I can bulldoze my way through most of these objections, but I
need to know ahead of time, at a minimum, where the adventure will begin,
to within a sector or so. Is this an impossible request?

4. My mailer munges origination addresses. Please post or Email your
own address, so I can direct further communications to you. My Email 
address is metlay@vm1.cis.pitt.edu.

5. And if you need something in the old history books that you don't have,
feel free to ask. My job as TML historian overrides any concerns I have
about keeping my character alive. Or anyone else's, for that matter. |->

Best of luck, and I'll see you all in the Starport!

dim the lights,

metlay



-------- TML Message #813 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 813
From: leonard@isis.WV.TEK.COM (Leonard Bottleman)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 90 15:47:03 PST
Subject: A simple question of how and who



Chris Bartlett at cdba_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu writes
>			There's no one around here to play MT
> face to face with anyway...

Which brings up the question, how do you find a group of people
with whom you can play Traveller (other than PBM Traveller,
that is)?

I'm just getting started with Traveller (I did play a few times
way back in 1983): I bought and read the Mega Traveller Player's
Guide, rolled up a few characters for practice, and think the
game sounds great, but what's next? The local game stores have
a few numbers of groups playing D&D and war games, but nothing
for Traveller players.

Leonard		leonard@isis.WV.TEK.COM

"What this place needs is a bigger parking lot."
	- M. Perkins, at Serengeti National Park, Tanzania




-------- TML Message #814 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 814
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 90 13:23 EST
From: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Subject: A diatribe on finding Traveller players (read with care)




	So you want to find a Traveller group....

	Good embleer luck, brother. If my own experiences in that respect were 
any indication, you're in for a long haul. But I'm hoping that if I can pass 
along some of my thoughts on the mistakes I've made to you, maybe you can do a 
short-cut on the time I've spent.

	Please keep in mind my perspective on this subject: I consider myself 
a Traveller referee first and foremost. Despite the other games I've played, 
run and written, my first love has always been Traveller, from the day I 
discovered the game in early 1978 until today. Because of that, I'm much less 
willing to compromise on the people I ref and the campaigns I organize than
you may be. But if you have a good idea of how important or unimportant this 
game is to YOU, then you're capable of deciding on how stringently you wish to 
follow my advice. 

	First, examine your own motives. This should be done not only for 
Traveller, but for any game campaign about which you care. Are you doing it 
because you're just curious about the way the system rules run? Are you just 
interested in giving SF as opposed to fantasy RPGs a try? Have you heard good  
things about the universe provided by the manufacturer?  Or are you basically 
looking for a good time, with the potential to develop a serious and ongoing 
campaign if it turns out that the rules ARE your cup of tea? These are 
important questions: they determine how strictly you're going to demand that 
your players follow the rules (and yourself as well), they let you exercise 
criteria for choosing gamers that are appropriate for the level of interest 
and involvement you desire, and they help you avoid people with attitudes that 
are, while not necessarily "bad" or "wrong," simply not going to mesh with 
yours or the other players'. Sound complicated? It is. And it should be! In my 
experience as a gamer, all thirteen-plus years of it, I have learned one vital 
truth: People with whom you game on a regular basis become very intimately 
connected to your life. They become, in a very real sense, a significant chunk 
of your circle of close friends. (For some poor folx, they are their ENTIRE 
circle of friends.) You'd better like them and the way they approach your 
game, or they're going to make your life hell. I know; I spent the chunks of 
time from 1979 to 1983 and 1984 to 1987 running games for a strong-tempered 
admixture of people I really liked and people I just put up with, and I 
decided in 1988 during an unwilling and forced departure from gaming that if I 
were ever to run another campaign, I would damn well LIKE the people with whom 
I gamed! And now, in 1989-90, I've done that and am very pleased with the 
results. Give it some thought and compare it to your own experiences; I think 
you'll see what I mean.

	Second, I can suggest a few places for finding players, and a few 
places which are, in my experience, NOT good for finding players, and why. 
	It's been my experience that posting notices in game stores is an iffy
proposition at best; you get a huge spectrum of gamers, both good and not so 
good. If you want to do this, you should follow two basic ground rules: first, 
list any criteria (level of experience, age, etc.) that you feel are important 
to you on the notice; you then have the right to reject out of hand anyone who 
answers the notice in violation of your expressly stated desires. Don't worry 
about sounding like a snob; remember, if all goes well, you're going to be 
seeing these people on a regular basis for a long time! Second, never promise 
anyone anything over the phone. Meet them face to face and take them out for a 
burger and fries or something, or run a trial game. But get to know them and 
hear how they talk and act, before you go letting them in. Be honest with 
yourself: do you need the aggravation of dealing with someone who sets your 
teeth on edge? You don't have to be impolite, or even to close the door 
permanently on a possible gamer; if they aren't appropriate, just don't put 
yourself in the position of HAVING to take them. The same goes for running ads 
in either the local gaming papers (if there are any) or in the nationals 
(CHALLENGE has an ad section that's either free or cheap that posts requests 
from refs and players all over the world), or advertising on the computer Nets 
as well. But never, never underestimate the importance of meeting prospects 
first!
	Another popular place to meet local gamers, ones who usually have a 
lot of experience in a wide range of games, is the Gaming Club of your local 
high school or college, depending on your age bracket of interest. In 
particular, college Gaming CLubs attract a decent number of grad students and
older folx who are looking for mature gamers with whom to play. In a perfect
world, anyone who walked into a Gaming Club would istantly be beseiged by
interested, interesting people eager to get an exciting new campaign going. 
In practice, however, this is rarely the case. I've dealt with gaming clubs in 
about a half dozen colleges in the past thirteen years; they've netted me some 
of the best and worst gamers I've ever met. Once again, conversation is a 
great way to spot good and bad prospects-- there's something about gamers that 
lets you learn volumes about their playing style, just by interacting with 
them in a social situation for a bit. I believe that this largely is due to
the social-interactive nature of RPGs in general. Whatever its source, it's a 
lifesaver. Again, remember you're not after "good" and "bad" GAMERS, or "good 
and bad" PEOPLE: you're learning about gamers who may be "good" or "bad" 
PROSPECTS for YOUR game. Don't damn somebody forever simply because they don't 
agree with the way you do things. But that doesn't mean  you have to put with 
them on a weekly basis for the next year or two, either.

	In your search, it pays to find people who are willing to either learn
the rules to a degree you deem appropriate, or who are willing to at least get
into the mindset of the game. Nothing ruins a Traveller game more than players
who moan, "I *hate* this combat system/time scaling/set of rules of psionics/
what have you! Why can't this game have blasters/magic/teleportation/Vulcans/
what have you?" You should make it clear from the outset with whomever you
meet that you're getting a group together to play Traveller, that will at
least try to appreciate Traveller for what it is. You'll get one of three
answers:
 	1. "Well, okay, but I'd really rather play (fill in the blank)." 
	2. "Well, okay, but I need to absorb the rules first. Do you mind?"
	3. "Yeah, sure, great! I'm looking forward to it!"

	None of these three classes is clear-cut in their suitability or lack 
thereof. For instance, if you don't have your heart set on Traveller (often, 
people who are having trouble getting a Trav group together are actually 
saying that they're having trouble meeting ANYONE who plays RPGs), and you 
meet a good-sized group of likable people who all want to play something else, 
then maybe you should go with the flow on this bunch, and keep an eye out for 
other prospects as you go. (I met all of the members of my current Trav game 
but one, while running a (blegh) D&D variant campaign that took three years to 
wrap up.) People who fall into the second category need to be judged on a case 
by case basis; my current group consists of five people, only two of which  
knew anything at all about Traveller before the campaign began. The other 
three taught themselves on the fly, and did a damn good job of it, too.
	It's the last category you have to watch the most carefully, though. 
If you were careful about selecting people before you got down to discussing 
rules, you should be okay, but Traveller, like any game, has its points where 
the wrong sort of attitudes tend to collect. I recently attended a wedding 
reception for a colleague in the Pitt Physics Department, an informal dinner 
where many people from his various hobbies had a chance to mingle. I hadn't 
known it but he was a member of a local gaming club, perhaps Pitt's but I'm 
not sure. Anyway, so here I am, getting some cheez nips from the cracker tray, 
when this guy next to me strikes up a conversation, and it went something like 
this.
	HIM: "Hi. You a friend of the bride's?"
	ME:  "Uh, no, the groom's actually. We work together."
	HIM: "Oh, you're in Physics! Okay! I know him from Game Club."
	ME:  "Game CLub? You play role-playing games?"
	HIM: "Yeah, man! You too?"
	ME:  "Well, yes, actually. But he and I have never--"
	HIM: "HOT SHIT, MAN! What rules do you use?"
	ME:  "Traveller...."
	HIM: "TRAVELLER? EXCELLENT GAME, man! Fukn AWESOME! Me'n my friends 
we've been running this Traveller game for a while now, it's gettin' kinda
lame because the ref is like a total DICK, but it's still a lotta fun, I run 
this Imperial Death Squad Trooper with like an FGMP-16 FUSION rifle and battle 
dress and shit, and me and my friends we were doin' this sorta crossover thing 
with Call of Cthulhu, y'know? Anyway, we were all holed up in this hotel and 
these things were attackin' us and I was blowin' em away, man, ain't NO fukn 
Elder God gonna stand up to no FUSION GUN, man, and so I'm goin' BABABABABOW, 
just BLOWIN'em away, when like this total GEEK I'm runnin' with screams, 
'THEY'RE COMIN' UP FROM THE BASEMENT!' and he starts just un-LOADING his Gauss 
Rifle down the stairs, an'-- SHUT UP, BITCH! I'm GETTIN' you yer fukn TUNA 
PATE'! 'Scuse me a second, will ya?"

	Need I say more? The point is that Traveller doesn't suit everyone, 
nor does everyone necessarily suit Traveller. But if you exercise a little 
care and look at the gaming community in general where you live and/or work, 
you can actually do pretty well for yourself. One other worthwhile way to meet 
other gamers, although it's hit-and-miss, is second degree referrals: other 
people who are good gamers who are at least on speaking terms with the people 
you meet and whom you can meet through them. The best gamer I've ever played 
with was referred to me by a mutual acquaintance, whom as it turned out 
neither of us could stand playing with.

	The essential point to remember is that there are a lot of gamers out 
there, and your task is not only to hook up with them, but also to hok up with 
the ones you enjoy playing with. If you keep that in mind, you can get in 
contact with ANYONE, even the groups in your local store that only advertise 
D&D interest, and find worthwhile people. At worst, you could do what I did, 
and suffer through a fantasy game for a while while building up a player base!

	Anyway, good luck to you. Let me know if any of this does you any 
good; it's a subject on which I feel strongly.

metlay

PS. The following is encased in strong personal-experience-only disclaimers:
Traveller is the only RPG I know of that has absolutely no implied sexual 
bias. Women in Traveller are as strong and competent as their male 
counterparts, and there are no overlaid images of "the sexy SF bimbo in the 
skintight vacuum suit zipped open to the navel" like one tends to get in games
like Space Opera and Star Ace. This is a huge plus for Traveller, as it tends 
to attract not only the small but eminently worthwhile subgroup of female 
gamers, but also those male gamers who are able to leave their sexual hangups 
at the door when they come to play, all of which leads to better gaming. Keep 
this in mind when shopping around for suitable people.



-------- TML Message #815 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 815
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 90 14:48:11 EST
From: (Kevin McFadden) fkam_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
Subject: PBE-M


	My observations of the talk on running a PBE-M Traveller game have led
me to a couple of conclusions:

  (1)	There seems to be an awful amount of interest in playing the game.
  
  (2)	It also seems clear that there will be too many players for the game.

  (3) 	If we could get a couple of people to run different games it would 
	probably be convenient to all the people who want to play.

	Anyway, I myself would be interested to get in on one of these games.
My only problem is that I'm more familiar with the  old Traveller and the new
MegaTraveller is "in the mail." 

						Kevin McFadden
						@uhura.cc.rochester.edu



-------- TML Message #816 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 816
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 90 21:54 EST
From: SYLVAIN$%DAYTON.BITNET@cornellc.cit.cornell.edu
Subject: PBEM Traveller


        I agree with Kevin McFadden's latest message - there do seem to
be too many people for one game to be run smoothly. Is there any other kind
soul who would be able to GM a game?
        Regardless, while I wish to get in on a game, I'm a little fuzzy on
some basics. Is MT a "must" or can us "Classic Traveller" people still use
our material? As I've mentioned to our prospective GM, I do think we need to
know a little more about the game, *if* we will make our own characters, or
at least have that option. Particularly as regards equipment and weaponry,
especially.
        Finally, I've sent a couple of messages to our brave volunteer for
GM (whose name escapes me at the moment, sorry!) but I am unsure if you have
got them or if they vanished in the system somewhere. Please contact me here
(sylvain$n@dayton.bitnet - preferred) or at sylvain@udcps2.cps.udayton.edu to
let me know that I can stop worrying. :-)
        I do hope that this gets off the ground, and works!

Nicholas Sylvain
sylvain$n@dayton.bitnet OR sylvain@udcps2.cps.udayton.edu

All opinions and material above is the responsibility of the originator.
Submissions: traveller@dadla.wr.tek.com, or uunet!dadla.wr.tek.com!traveller
Administrator: traveller-request@dadla.wr.tek.com (James Perkins)
The TML is made possible by facilities provided by Tektronix, Inc.

-------- TML Message #817 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 817
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 90 15:33:16 EST
From: (Frobozz) wrgate.wr.tek.com!uunet.uu.net!munnari!eldritch.hss.bu.oz.au!grue@tektronix.TEK.COM
Subject: Play by E-Mail Traveller.



(WARNING: possible spoiler for the old 'Murder on Acturis Station' adventure)





hiya,
	I like the idea of a Repo scenario, but I think that something along
the lines of 'Murder of Acturis Station' would take advantage of the medium
better.  E-Mail makes all player/GM communication private (unless the GM
decides otherwise).  Also E-Mail would make it very difficult to determine if
another character was a REAL player or a GM NPC!

An investigation scenaro like Murder could be challenging (The player character
murderer would be quite exciting.  But, the player might be an NPC and nobody
could tell the difference).



Just some random thoughts.  Any comments anyone?

I'm still very intested in seeing how this turns out!



							Pauli
seeya
SNIF

Language Centre              internet    : grue@lance.hss.bu.oz{.au}
Bond University              JANET       : grue%lance.hss.bu.oz@uk.ac.ukc
Gold Coast, Qld 4229         ARPA, bitnet: grue%lance.hss.bu.oz.au@uunet.uu.net
Australia                    UUCP        : ..!uunet!munnari!lance.hss.bu.oz!grue

           >>>>>>>>>> E-Mail address changing next week <<<<<<<<<<




-------- TML Message #818 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 818
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 90 15:33:16 EST
From: (Frobozz) wrgate.wr.tek.com!uunet.uu.net!munnari!eldritch.hss.bu.oz.au!grue@tektronix.TEK.COM
Subject: Play by E-Mail Traveller.



(WARNING: possible spoiler for the old 'Murder on Acturis Station' adventure)





hiya,
	I like the idea of a Repo scenario, but I think that something along
the lines of 'Murder of Acturis Station' would take advantage of the medium
better.  E-Mail makes all player/GM communication private (unless the GM
decides otherwise).  Also E-Mail would make it very difficult to determine if
another character was a REAL player or a GM NPC!

An investigation scenaro like Murder could be challenging (The player character
murderer would be quite exciting.  But, the player might be an NPC and nobody
could tell the difference).



Just some random thoughts.  Any comments anyone?

I'm still very intested in seeing how this turns out!



							Pauli
seeya
SNIF

Language Centre              internet    : grue@lance.hss.bu.oz{.au}
Bond University              JANET       : grue%lance.hss.bu.oz@uk.ac.ukc
Gold Coast, Qld 4229         ARPA, bitnet: grue%lance.hss.bu.oz.au@uunet.uu.net
Australia                    UUCP        : ..!uunet!munnari!lance.hss.bu.oz!grue

           >>>>>>>>>> E-Mail address changing next week <<<<<<<<<<




-------- TML Message #819 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 819
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 90 10:59:00 EST
From: HOBBIT@ac.dal.ca
Subject: PBeM


About the PBeM game--a thought on characters.
I really like the idea of pre-generated characters--or at least an outline--from
   Richard (and/or anyone else that's willing).  That way, people who don't
necessarily have or know the rules well can participate.  (Which happens to
include me.)

     Colin Roald



-------- TML Message #820 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 820
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 90 10:55:00 EST
From: HOBBIT@ac.dal.ca
Subject: Trav, MegaT, and PBeM


I feel kind of stupid for asking this, but what is the difference between T
Traveller and MegaTraveller.  I take it that they are set in the same universe--
   is the only difference a rules revision?  Could someone give me a brief outli
   ne of the background.  I'm afraid I only know 2300AD.
I like the idea of a murder-mystery game, with all players run independently.
That sort of thing never seems to work very well in a standard game setting (I
don't mean running independently--that wouldn't work at all).

    Colin Roald (hobbit@ac.dal.ca)

         "The meek shall inherit the Earth.
           The rest of us get the Stars."






-------- TML Message #821 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 821
Subject: Re: Starship design revamping 
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 90 20:07:17 PST
From: (Leonard Erickson) leonard@tessi.UUCP



Sorry, but GURPS is wrong, and Traveller is much closer to being correct.
For the drives alone it can easily be shown that the "thousand miles to
the gallon" is correct.

First of all, there was a paragraph buried in the original rules that 
gave fuel consumption as an option. I worked it out and it gave an Isp
of 600,000 for the drive. (which incidentally matches the figure given
for a "fusion drive" on a chart that NASA seems to have put in 90% of the
secondary school classrooms in the US during the 60's) Isp relates thrust
and fuel consumption as follows: Isp =thrust(in pounds)/fuel consumption
(in pounds per second). Astute readers will notice slight problems with
dimensionality in this calculation. More astute readers will realize
that this is expected when one uses the same unit for mass and force. 
Anyway, to get 6 million pounds opf thrust with such a drive (same as a
Saturn V) you need 10 pound per second of fuel. This is enough to move
a 3000 ton ship at 1g. So much for 200 years of fuel...

If you want to figure it yourself, the standard rule of thumb is that a
fusion reaction converts .1% (.001) of the reaction mass into energy. So
you can figure from that how much fuel in needed to get how much energy.
This gives an lower limit for fuel consumption. It'll likely take more as
the equipment isn't going to be 100% efficient at turning the energy released
by the reaction into power or thrust, or whatever.



-------- TML Message #822 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 822
From: (Matt Goldman) goldman@ferris.cray.COM
Subject: The Fifth Frontier War
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 90 10:44:44 CDT


Ah, the grand war. . .  I have rather fond memories of arriving at a
convention, all set to run a session of Traveller, the premise of my
adventure was that the players had been hired to make first contact
with a rather nicely located planet before the _EVIL_ Zhodanis could.
The players had been told that the Empire was very close to war with
the Zhodanis and that they should be careful.  I had just finished
briefing the players when one of them who had hit the dealer's room
held up the new JTAS with "WAR!" in large letters across the cover. .  .

The game went really well by the way.  Every character was created
secretly.  Everyone of them seceretly worked for a different side in
the universe.  They picked one of the Zhodani spies as their leader. .  .

I can tell more about the adventure if asked.  We were refered to as
"The Traveller display hit by a hand grenade."
- -- 
Matthew Goldman 	(612) 936-9675 goldman@ferris.cray.com

It's real handy, havin' an Elder God in the band, eh?"



-------- TML Message #823 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 823
From: ("45252-Peter L. Berghold") wrgate.wr.tek.com!uunet.uu.net!allegra!violin!plb@tektronix.TEK.COM
Subject: hex map calculations
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 90 11:46:58 EST


Not too long ago somebody asked who to go about creating hex maps
with a computer.  What follows is a rather "dirty"program that I wrote 
not too long ago to create subsector map grids with troff.  It is 
written in C and is portable to MSDOS with the LATTICE C compiler.  Its
output should be fed through PIC before submitting to troff.   I wholeheartedly
make no claims on it whatsoever and it is free for all to use as they see 
fit.

- ----------------------------> CUT HERE <--------------------------------------


#include <math.h>
#include <stdio.h>
#ifndef LATTICE
#define CritAng	( (2 * M_PI) / 6.0 )
#else
#define CritAng ( (2 * PI ) / 6.0 )
#endif

main()
{
	int	Vertex;
	int	ix,iy;
	double	Radius;
	double  Ymove;
	double  Xmove;
	double	x,y;
	FILE	*fout;

	Radius= 0.5/sin( CritAng );	/* Sixty degree angle */
	Xmove= Radius + ( cos( CritAng ) * Radius) ; 
	Ymove= 2.0*cos (CritAng)  * sin( CritAng / 2.0 ); /* Thirty Degrees */
	
	fout=fopen("hex.pic","w");
	
	fprintf(stdout,".PS 7 5 \n");
	fprintf(stdout,"xmove=%.3g\n",Xmove);
	fprintf(stdout,"ymove=%.3g\n",Ymove);
	fprintf(stdout,"define Hex X\n");
	fprintf(stdout,"cx=$1\ncy=$2\n");
	

	for (Vertex=1; Vertex <= 6; Vertex++){
		y= Radius * sin ( (double) (Vertex-1) * CritAng) ;
		x= Radius * cos ( (double) (Vertex-1) * CritAng) ;

		fprintf(stdout,"hexx%d=%.3g\n",Vertex,x);
		fprintf(stdout,"hexy%d=%.3g\n",Vertex,y);
	}

	fprintf(stdout,"move to (cx+hexx1,cy+hexy1)\n");
	
	for(Vertex=6;Vertex>=1;Vertex--){
		fprintf(stdout,"line to (cx+hexx%d,cy+hexy%d)\n",Vertex,Vertex);
	}
	
	fprintf(stdout,"\"\\s-2$3$4\\s0\" at (cx,hexy3+cy) below\n");

	fprintf(stdout,"X\ndefine CreateMap X\n");
	for(ix=1;ix<=8;ix++)
		for(iy=1;iy<=10;iy++){
		if (ix%2 == 0 ) y=(double)iy + Ymove;
		else y=(double)iy;
		x=(double)(ix-1) * Xmove;
		y= 11-y;
		if ( iy < 10 ) 
			fprintf(stdout,"Hex(%.3g,%.3g,0%d,0%d)\n",x,y,ix,iy);
		else
			fprintf(stdout,"Hex(%.3g,%.3g,0%d,%d)\n",x,y,ix,iy);
	}
	fprintf(stdout,"X\nCreateMap()\n\n.PE\n");

	fclose(fout);
}



- -- 
/* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  */
/*		Peter L. Berghold					*/
/*		System Administrator					*/
/*		AT&T Red Hill Systems Administration Group		*/
/*		1F138	+1 (201) 615-4419				*/
/*		EMAIL (UUCP):	{uunet!allegra|att}!violin!plb		*/
/* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  */




-------- TML Message #824 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 824
From: frisk@rhi.hi.is (Fridrik Skulason)
Subject: Idea for a PBE-M
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 90 10:35:14 GMT


[This came to traveller-request@dadla.wr.tek.com, looks like it was
meant for traveller@dadla.wr.tek.com.  Watch those automatic reply
headers! -- James]

There seems to be considerable interest in a PBE-M game - perhaps too much.
But what type of game would be best suited for our situation - a large
number of individuals running around ?

Well, I would suggest that a "treasure hunt" would be ideal.  Perhaps
something like this...

	"One of the richest and most eccentric individuals in the
 	 known universe died recently. His will contained only the
	 following text:

	 The source of my wealth will be given to the first person
	 or group who finds and understands my question to the following
	 answer.

			Answer: A cat from Alcyon

	 good luck..."



The TML is made possible by facilities provided by Tektronix, Inc.

-------- TML Message #825 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 825
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Subject: Re: Wanted: 1 Imperial Atlas
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 90 18:43:17 MET DST


[This came to traveller-request@dadla.wr.tek.com, looks like it was
meant for traveller@dadla.wr.tek.com.  Watch those automatic reply
headers! -- James]

> Fellow Travellers, I have a problem.  I'm new to the game (less than a
> year) and am playing MegaTraveller (as classic Traveller refs. are scarce
> these days).  My dilemma is that none of the MegaTraveller products detail
> the entire Imperial (at least from the map standpoint).  I see from the
> archives, however, that classic Traveller included something called, "Atlas
> of the Imperium", which sounds like exactly what I'm looking for.
> Are these still published?  If not, does MegaTraveller have something
> comparable?  I need the bigger picture.

No, Atlas of the Imperium is out of print. It might be possible to 
find it in some obscure stores, though.

For MegaT there has been talk from DGP about UPP's for 35 (?) sectors
on computer file. 
(A quick calculation makes an estimate of atleast 150kbyte)
A note in "Worldbuilder's Handbook" said that it would be available in
january 90 but it seems that it has been delayed.


- -bertil-
- -- 
Bertil K K Jonell @ Chalmers University of Technology, Gothenburg
NET: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se 
VOICE: +46 31 723971 / +46 300 61004     "Don't worry,I've got Pilot-7"
SNAILMAIL: Box 154,S-43900 Onsala,SWEDEN      (Famous last words)      
"Occationally he [Dulinor] rubs people the wrong way" Emperor Strephon 066-1116



-------- TML Message #826 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 826
From: ("Brent L. Woods") woodsb@gn.ecn.purdue.edu
Subject: Psionics Abuse
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 90 19:18:12 EST



 In message:  <9001190042.AA15207@unix.cis.pitt.edu> Mike Metlay writes:
 >
 >And, my most pet peeve of all, the one thing I have never seen run or
 >played well in this game:  Psionics

     Yup.  Tough to run.  Not really in and of itself, but more from the
way some players (try to) use (abuse) it.

 >                                    (Take your pick:  either "Oh, he
 >can't sneak up on me, I'm reading his mind"

     There's a solution to this one.  I've had to deal with it several
times ("I'm just walking along, listening to the mental currents...").
The solution is...Psionic Strength Points.  Okay.  Joe Munchkin's new
*favorite* character "Biff the Absurdly Over-Muscled" has a PSR of 10.
He wants to walk along using telepathy as a warning device.  The Ref
says, "Okay," and, unbeknownst to Joe, strikes off one point *every ten
minutes*.  Yes, that's right--he uses up his psi in just over an hour
and a half.  Then, later, when he wants to use his psi in, say, an
interrogation, the Ref says, "That's unfortunate--you used up your psi
points hours ago, running continuous telepathy."  Needless to say, Joe
will try to "book lawyer" his way out of this (if necessary, he'll
whine) with some (usually quite creative) misinterpretation of the
rules.  The Ref's attitude should be, "Tough."  Eventually, Joe will
learn the lesson of Traveller Psionics (see below).

 >                                            or "You mean this guy I've
 >been running with for a game year is a psi?  Geez, I really feel bad
 >about this, but I blow him away when his back's turned.").  Sigh...

     I haven't seen this one, since my players tend to take the
pragmatic attitude that *any* extra power in their hands is a good
thing that might come in handy later.  Of course, this doesn't mean that
*NPCs* feel the same way...  :-)  Seriously, though, this kind of
situation is a perfect example of the other half of the Traveller
Psionics Lesson:

          Psionics are neat and flashy and can (occasionally) be useful,
          but they don't buy you enough to be worth the effort.

     Think about it.  They're hard to get (Psi institutes are *very*
rare, not to mention difficult to find), by the time you get them,
you're probably old enough that you have a very low strength, and they
provide a source of continuing danger to the possessor.

     Once a party figures this out, psionics ceases to be a problem.  At
least, that's how it has worked for me so far.


- --
     Brent

INTERNET:  woodsb@gn.ecn.purdue.edu  /  woodsb@attctc.dallas.tx.us
USENET:  pur-ee!gn.ecn.purdue.edu!woodsb
FIDONET:  Brent.Woods@p303.f40.n201.z1.fidonet.org  (from Internet)  or
          Brent Woods@1:201/40.303  (from FidoNet)
USNAIL:  320 Brown St., #406  /  W. Laf., IN  47906
PHONE:  +1 (317) 743-8421 (voice)




-------- TML Message #827 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 827
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 90 20:17 EST
From: (Bob Mahoney) BOBMAH%PSC.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: Need Technical Help


On page 21 of the MT Referee's Guide, there is a listing of the planets in the
Regina system.  Now the maximum orbit determination shown on page 26 says to
throw 2D for both primary and companion stars, with modifiers up to +8 listed.
That seems to indicate a maximum orbit of 20.

Now, the listing shows Thermidor, Olybrius, and Alise orbiting Cent, but Alise
is in orbit 25.  The remaining planets outward orbit Assiniboia, with Harcourt
at orbit 30 and Regina at orbit 55.

a)  I don't get this, and am reading it wrong.

b)  This is a typo.

Can anybody help me out on this?  My players are looking at some in-system
travel, (next session) and I am at a loss to tell them how long it takes.
(A a travel-time from Regina to Harcourt is my immediate goal...)

Thanks.

- -BobMah



-------- TML Message #828 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 828
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 90 20:33:07 EST
From: (Kevin McFadden) fkam_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
Subject: Renaisance



	I don't know how widespread Renaisance became but I will bring it up
anyway.  Basically it was a Traveller campaign that pitted players against 
each other; physically and economically.  The way I remember it was that each
participent decided what type of character they would play.  Examples of 
this are smuggler, merchant, pirate, etc.... You could also be the head of 
a populated world or system of worlds. These last ones also included keeping
your people happy, fed, all the problems we have now.  I don't really have any
specifics but I remember that it was played "blind."  No player knew who the
other player was... for all you knew you could have been attacking your best
friend.  If anyone knows of it let me know, or if there is enough interest I
could get my friend to try and hunt down the guy who ran it.

						Kevin McFadden
				


-------- TML Message #829 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 829
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 90 13:12:43 est
From: (Eric Halil) wrgate.wr.tek.com!uunet.uu.net!munnari!uqcspe.cs.uq.oz.au!erich@tektronix.TEK.COM
Subject: PBE-M TCS/Fifth Frontier War


Hi,

I've been reading the Traveller PBE-M discussion with great interest
and would love to play!

Seems heaps of people are interested in PBE-M Traveller roleplay.
Anyone interested in PBE-M Fifth Frontier War/TCS as well??

Jim Cunningham mentioned he'd played Fifth Frontier War PBM. This has the
advantage that the mechanics for a PBM FFW are already reasonably play-
tested so there shouldn't be any hiccups in the rules. As Paul (grue@...)
mentioned we tried working out a PBM TCS but got bogged down in combat.
If FFW has already been converted to PBM all that much better.

Unfortunately, I've never played FFW and know only the a basic outline
of the game.  I guess that it could probably accommodate quite a few
players though, one player per major fleet should be optimal.

Incorporating the "fog of war" rules from TCS (i.e. each fleet admiral
knows only what intelligence information he is given by scouts, local
planetary bases, etc. And no one has complete knowledge (except the GM,
of course!) about current locations/sizes/etc...) could make it interesting.

Comments? Suggestions?

Eric.
- -------------------------------+---------------------------------------------
Eric Halil                     |
Department of Computer Science |Internet/CSnet:      erich@uqcspe.cs.uq.oz.au
University of Queensland       |Bitnet: erich%uqcspe.cs.uq.oz.au@uunet.uu.net
St Lucia    4067               |UUCP:     uunet!munnari!uqcspe.cs.uq.oz!erich
AUSTRALIA                      |JANET:     erich%uqcspe.cs.uq.oz.au@uk.ac.ukc
- -------------------------------+---------------------------------------------



-------- TML Message #830 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 830
From: (Bertil Jonell) d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: Starship design revamping
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 90 10:39:15 MET DST


leonard@tessi.uucp writes:
> Sorry, but GURPS is wrong, and Traveller is much closer to being correct.
> For the drives alone it can easily be shown that the "thousand miles to
> the gallon" is correct.
> 
> First of all, there was a paragraph buried in the original rules that 
> gave fuel consumption as an option. I worked it out and it gave an Isp
> of 600,000 for the drive. (which incidentally matches the figure given
> for a "fusion drive" on a chart that NASA seems to have put in 90% of the
> secondary school classrooms in the US during the 60's) Isp relates thrust
> and fuel consumption as follows: Isp =thrust(in pounds)/fuel consumption
> (in pounds per second). Astute readers will notice slight problems with
> dimensionality in this calculation. More astute readers will realize
> that this is expected when one uses the same unit for mass and force. 
> Anyway, to get 6 million pounds opf thrust with such a drive (same as a
> Saturn V) you need 10 pound per second of fuel. This is enough to move
> a 3000 ton ship at 1g. So much for 200 years of fuel...

I'm not sure that the Isp is usable for reactionless thrusterplates...
This "fusion drive" is probably more similar to the "fusion rocket"
in the COACC.

I looked fusion up in a physics textbook and it states that for standard
deuterium fusion with all its secondary stages. (First deuterium fuse
with deuterium to produce various hydrogen and helium isotopes and free
neutrons and assorted other radiation. Then some of these products fuse
to make some more energy.)
The book gives the energy gained from fusion of one atom of deuterium
(including all byproducts etc) to 13E-13 Joules. 
The occurance of deuterium in hydrogene it states as 15 to 100,000.
(Deuterium is a hydrogene isotope).
One gram (1E-3 kilos, 1E-6 tons) of hydrogene contains 6.023E23 hydrogene
atoms, and will thus yield 11E9 Jouls. 
One ton of Tech15 plant uses 0.009 tons of H2 per hour.
This translates to about 99E12 MWatts per per kl of plant per hour or, in
other words, 99,000,000 MW per kl of plant...

(I hope I havn't done any errors too big to explain away:-)
- -bertil-
- -- 
Bertil K K Jonell @ Chalmers University of Technology, Gothenburg
NET: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se 
VOICE: +46 31 723971 / +46 300 61004     "Don't worry,I've got Pilot-7"
SNAILMAIL: Box 154,S-43900 Onsala,SWEDEN      (Famous last words)      
"GOOD DEEL ON SLIGHTLY USED CRANE" Orson Scott Card 'The Abyss'


-------- TML Message #831 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 831
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 90 09:31 EST
From: (Bob Mahoney) BOBMAH%PSC.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: Partial "Play by E-mail" solution


Hi all-

I expressed interest in in playing the email game (like everybody else),
and I'd still like to play, but it's plain that the interest level is pretty
high, and I wonder if Richard is going to have time/energy to integrate 20
different turn responses every week or so...

Is there any way that a second pair of fingers might help?  Possibly as part of
the double-blind setup?  As an alternative, possibly a second campaign.  I
would be willing to volunteer as a helper, or possibly a second referee.

In my experience, more than four players makes life hell for the referee, and
makes campaign depth and complexity difficult to maintain.  How many people are
we really talking about?  Some coordination is necessary.

I'm sending this to the list, rather than Richard, because I'm not really sure
if he's getting my side mailings.  ("Richard, blink if you can hear me...")

- -Bob




-------- TML Message #832 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 832
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 90 10:32:16 CST
From: (Jim Cunningham) jcunning@gsliss.lis.uiuc.edu
Subject: FFW & things





FFW by mail was a blast. A friend of mine was reffing, and another friend
and I sent him fleet movements, combat orders, etc., which he would then
resolve and send back to us. The fog of war element added a great deal
to the game, and adding this to the game system which already involves
a great deal of fog by requiring players to plot several turns in advance,
made this real interesting. Add to this the fact that the ref threw in
a few outright lies to simulate glitches in inel gathering and you had a
real mess much like trying to plan and run a real war. PBM also has the
advantage that your opponent is not sitting at the other end of the table
waiting for you to make your move. If your schedule is as hectic as mine,
its handy to take a half hour or so when you have it and study the map.

The only real problem with the game is play balance (read: it's impossible
for the Imperium to win) due to the game being rushed through production,
but this can easily be fixed by altering the victory conditions and/or
increasing the Imperial reinforcement arrival speed. If anyone wants to
get a game going, I'll be happy to dust off my copy along with the PBM
modifications which we made up. Because of the amount of traffic (there's
a helluva lot of paperwork involved) I'd suggest using U.S. mail
for this.

I was disappointed when GDW did almost nothing with the war in terms
of adventuring. There was quite a build up for the war (as licensees
we got to hear the story ahead of time, which was great fun) but them
they didn't do much with it. The same seems to be true for the Shattered
Imperium-- the few adventures which have been done only barely touch
on the subject.


			Jim Cunningham
			Traveller Relic





-------- TML Message #833 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 833
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 90 16:16:09 EST
From: (Greg Givler - PA) givler@cbmvax.commodore.COM
Subject: Re:  PBE-M TCS/Fifth Frontier War


>Unfortunately, I've never played FFW and know only the a basic outline
>of the game.  I guess that it could probably accommodate quite a few
>players though, one player per major fleet should be optimal.

This sound s like just what the doctor ordered I think that being able 
to play an admiral in the Zhodane or Imperial fleet would be a hoot.

>Incorporating the "fog of war" rules from TCS (i.e. each fleet admiral
>knows only what intelligence information he is given by scouts, local
>planetary bases, etc. And no one has complete knowledge (except the GM,
>of course!) about current locations/sizes/etc...) could make it interesting.

I have been looking for war games that do just that, think of being Lee
approaching Gettysburg, not know who or where Meade was, thinking that
Reynolds would be a better choice. Not having your cavalry to give you
the intelligence to make rational decisions. This is what a war simulation
is for me.

>Comments? Suggestions?

>Eric.







-------- TML Message #834 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 834
From: (Adrian Hurt) adrian%cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
Subject: PBE-M TCS/Fifth Frontier War
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 90 19:43:10 BST


Eric Halil writes:

> Anyone interested in PBE-M Fifth Frontier War/TCS as well??

Me, for one; I would be interested in playing Fifth Frontier War.

> Incorporating the "fog of war" rules from TCS (i.e. each fleet admiral
> knows only what intelligence information he is given by scouts, local
> planetary bases, etc. And no one has complete knowledge (except the GM,
> of course!) about current locations/sizes/etc...) could make it interesting.

These are certainly new things to try in FFW!

 "Keyboard? How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk



-------- TML Message #835 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 835
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!reed.UUCP!oresoft.uu.net!richard@tektronix.TEK.COM (Richard Johnson)
Subject: Sorry about the delay...
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 90 13:53:31 PDT


My apologies to all of you who have responded to my request to start
a play-by E-mail game.  Immediately after posting to the list, I
discovered (well, er, uh, more like got kicked around by) a serious
bottleneck in mailing from oresoft.  I've been experimenting with
numerous addressing methods to work around it, and think it's just
about licked.  I will get around to checking mail and so forth
*real soon now* 

Enough people have responded to warrant either two parties or a
large expedition.  Let me know what you prefer - or rather what your
characters prefer.  I will probably have one or two "shills" (aka
NPC's), but you won't know who they are; the *patrons* might be
player characters :).

Please give some thought to making your character multi-dimensional.
Get into his/her/its personality.  How old are they?  What are their
hobbies?  Why are here?  Do they like people?  Do they have old
emotional or physical scars they try to hide or show off?  Are they
rebels or conformists?  

Don't tell anyone (necessarily).  Just try to keep these sorts of
things in mind.  It will make for much more interesting character
interaction.
	Richard




-------- TML Message #836 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 836
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 90 22:36:02 -0500 (EST)
From: (William Dow Rieder) wr0k+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Starship design revamping


leonard@tessi.uucp writes:

>Sorry, but GURPS is wrong, and Traveller is much closer to being correct.
>For the drives alone it can easily be shown that the "thousand miles to
>the gallon" is correct.

No, it isn't. I did similar calculations for High Guard back in the bad
old days
and came to the same conclusion: the power plant/manuver drive did not use
enough fuel to account for the kinetic energy of the ship after
accellerating at
say, 1G for a month.
	The problem is that the MT manuver drives are not rockets! The fact
that they are reactionless has a fundamental effect on how much energy can be
given to the ship in the form of velocity. See below.

 d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se writes:

>I looked fusion up in a physics textbook and...

[lots of calculations deleted]

>This translates to about 99E12 MWatts per per kl of plant per hour or, in
>other words, 99,000,000 MW per kl of plant...

Your physics looks fine to me. The way the rules stand, fusion powerplants
are hideously inefficient. It is even worse than your calculations show,
because
you assume the hydrogen has not been enriched in deuterium in any way --
meaning that more than 99.9% of the fuel is just thrown away, or vented for
cooling, or whatever.
	The problem with the Mega-Traveller power plants and manuver
drives is very subtle. The inefficiency of the power plant is masked by the
remarkable (read: physically impossible) efficiency of the manuver drive.
Having a reactionless manuver drive not only lets you violate Newton's
3rd law (reaction for action), but conservation of energy as well! As far as I
can tell, it is impossible to have a reactionless drive without this property.

Example: Take a standard scoutship, which masses 916 tons full, has drives
that require 350 Mw to accellerate it at 2G's, and has enough fuel for a month.
Suppose it accellerates for a month in one direction. At the end of the
month, it
is travelling at 5.08E8 meters per second, giving it a kinetic energy of
1.182E23 Joules.  During that month, the drives have used 3.5E8 * 3600 * 24
* 30 = 9.072E14 Joules, giving an effective efficiency of 1,303,000,000%
(I want a drive like that for my car...)
	The energy to power the drive doesn't have to come from a fusion
plant. It could just as easily come from batteries, or lots of people
riding bicycle
generators. The fact that it usually comes from fusion plants just helps
to hide their extravagant fuel use.
	The fundamental problem is that the manuver drive uses energy
at a constant rate, but gives the ship kinetic energy that goes up as
the square
of the time, assuming constant accelleration. This means there is NO fixed
number for drive power consumption that won't eventually start giving you
free energy, after going in one direction for long enough.  Sooooo.... if you
want your system to be consistent, you have to give up either reactionless
drives or conservation of energy. I personally favor keeping the drives,
because they work in game terms, which is really the important part.
	The powerplant problem is more serious, because fusion plants are
used for things other than powering ship drives.  The MT fusion plant outputs
and fuel usage are lifted directly, unchanged, from Striker. This bothers me,
since it makes fusion plants not much better than fuel cells in terms of fuel
use per unit of output. Since they just took the numbers from Striker, and
made them apply to starships as well, I would prefer to go back to the
numbers from High Guard, which worked better (1 kl of fuel to power 1 kl
of plant per month at TL15, instead of 6.48 kl fuel per kl of plant as
it is now.)
If you think things are bad for starships, try designing a robot with a fusion
power source....

	Anyway, I thought people might be interested in the results I got.
Comments and error corrections welcome.

					W. Dow Rieder
				alias Capt. Kagariilian Grant



-------- TML Message #837 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 837
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!reed.UUCP!oresoft.uu.net!richard@tektronix.TEK.COM (Richard Johnson)
Subject: Those who would play...
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 90 17:30:01 PDT


For some reason, I can mail to Tek, but most other places seem to be
verboten (perhaps "kaput" is a better word).  My system
administrator says he'll fix the problem tonight...

So, without reference to possible characters, here are those who
*I know* have requested a slot in the Play-by E-mail game coming up
shortly.  There might still be a few I've missed so don't panic if
you don't see your name.  Everyone who wants to should get in.

Bob Mahoney						Bob Moynihan
Gerald Williams					Fredrick Krage
Nicholas Sylvain				Greg Givler
Joshua Cunningham				Cynthia Lee
Dan Corrin						Steven Owens
Jan Peterson					Eric Halil
(Mr?) Bertil (Please send your name)

So anyway, those of you who sent in your requests early, never to
hear from me *DONT PANIC*.  You should all get mail in a day or two
(I hope).

This was, unfortunately, not a test.  Thanks for your patience if
not your understanding.
	Richard





-------- TML Message #838 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 838
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 90 09:54:33 EST
From: (Brian Gillespie) bgillesp@beast.prime.COM
Subject: pbm



With the large number of people who have expressed interest in a pbm game
I thought I'd just sit on the side and watch, but no, my desire to play is
to strong.  So if it works count me in too.

As to character generation.  I think having people inform the GM as to the
type of character they wish to play, being as vague or detailed as desired,
and have the GM generate/supply the charater that best 'fits' the scenario
would be a good idea.  This way the GM can  also assure that some skills 
that are essential to the scenario are out there.  A few well placed unusual
skills can also act as a good misdirect.

Brian
essential to the scenario



-------- TML Message #839 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 839
From: CHOINSKI@env.prime.COM
Date: 24 Jan 90 11:37:17 EDT


[Visit beautiful Feri, the twin worlds of paradise!]

I would also be interested in a FFW PBM if someone else can ref it.  I
think having 3-4 people per side would be kind of neat.  I could finally
dust off that copy in my attic and use it again!

Count me in if anyone plans to run such a puppy.

- -============================================================================-
 Burton Choinski                                       choinski@env.prime.com
   Prime Computer, Inc.                                  (617) 879-2960 x3233
   Framingham, Ma.  01701
 Disclaimer:  Down! Down! Down! Out! Out! Out! Mine! Mine! Mine!
- -============================================================================-





-------- TML Message #840 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 840
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Subject: Re: Starship design revamping
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 90 10:04:40 MET DST


[This came to traveller-request@dadla.wr.tek.com, looks like it was
meant for traveller@dadla.wr.tek.com.  Watch those automatic reply
headers! -- James]

W. Dow Rieder writes:

>  d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se writes:
> 
> >I looked fusion up in a physics textbook and...
> 
> [lots of calculations deleted]
> 
> >This translates to about 99E12 MWatts per per kl of plant per hour or, in
                                  ^^^^^^
> >other words, 99,000,000 MW per kl of plant...

Oops, I seems to have made a fumble mishap. Well, that's what happens when
one uses a book to gain a temporary skilllevel :-)

The MWatt should have been Joules. This changes the final figure to
27500 MW per kl. Coming from a lump of machinery 1m x 1m x 1m this sounds
somewhat large (to say the least) , so the best solution might be to reduce the
fuelconsumption.
On the other hand, TL15 can be used to justify almost anything :-) so a simple
solution is to increase the fusion pp outputs with a factor 1000.
That way on kl of TL15 plant will produce 6 * 1000 MW, and if it was
part of a 14+ kl plant 6 * 1000 * 3 MW (18,000 MW) which is resonably close
to 27,000 MW.

> 	The problem with the Mega-Traveller power plants and manuver
> drives is very subtle. The inefficiency of the power plant is masked by the
> remarkable (read: physically impossible) efficiency of the manuver drive.

A suggestion, why not correct both things and with the same amount? If both
energy production and energy consumption is increased, lets say, 1000 times
(volume etc left untouched) the net change would be zero (Aside from a
net gain in space available, because the volume of the part of the power-
plant thats dedicated to supply the non-drive components is reduced by a
factor 1000.
Of course, the definition of agility would have to be changed, or else every
tom, dick and harry would have a ship with Agility 6.
As a definition of agility I would like to suggest the enery required to 
make the ship rotate along its long axis with a certain speed.
This way, agility would be dependent on the mass of the ship *and* it's
configuration. (A ship with lots of stuff sticking out here and there is
harder to turn than a ship shaped as a sphere.)
Presumably, ships with AirFrame config should also get a agility bonus when
manuvering in atmosphere,because they can use aerodynamics to make faster turns.

- -bertil-
- -- 
Bertil K K Jonell @ Chalmers University of Technology, Gothenburg
NET: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se 
VOICE: +46 31 723971 / +46 300 61004     "Don't worry,I've got Pilot-7"
SNAILMAIL: Box 154,S-43900 Onsala,SWEDEN      (Famous last words)      
"There's a sucker born every month, except february, which have 28!" Alf Tanner


-------- TML Message #841 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 841
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 90 15:22:33 EST
From: (Dan Corrin) dan@engrg.uwo.ca
Subject: Re: Starship design revamping (Physics corrections)


My Physics is a bit rusty, but bertil's calcuations seemed a bit wrong to me:

> The book gives the energy gained from fusion of one atom of deuterium
> (including all byproducts etc) to 13E-13 Joules.
O.K. I don't know any different here.

> The occurance of deuterium in hydrogene it states as 15 to 100,000.
> (Deuterium is a hydrogene isotope).
Fine

> One gram (1E-3 kilos, 1E-6 tons) of hydrogene contains 6.023E23 hydrogene
> atoms, and will thus yield 11E9 Jouls.
Here is where I have problems: 
Via Avogradro's number one mole contains 6.02217E23 atoms (minor correction)
One mole of hydrogen weighs 1.008 grams (again minor correction)
	1 gram contains 5.9742E23 hydrogen atoms
at 15:100,000 this is 8.9613E19 deuterium atoms
at 13E-13 joules each this is 1.1656E8 Joules

> One ton of Tech15 plant uses 0.009 tons of H2 per hour.
> This translates to about 99E12 MWatts per per kl of plant per hour or, in
> other words, 99,000,000 MW per kl of plant...

0.009 tonnes is 9000 grams, at 1.1656E8 Joules each...
now we have 1.049E12 Joules per kl over 1 hour, one Watt is 1 Joule/second
divide by 3600 seconds in an hour, gives 2.9140E8 Watts
which is 291.4 MW of output per kl of plant... (assuming 100% efficiency,and
non-enriched fuel).

> (I hope I havn't done any errors too big to explain away:-)
> -bertil-
I hope I have not corrected you in error...
	-Dan

Dan Corrin, System Manager, Mechanical Engineering, UWO, London, Ontario
TML FTP site coordinator:  dan@engrg.uwo.ca   ...!watmath!julian!engrg!dan



-------- TML Message #842 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 842
Subject: Re: Starship design revamping 
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 90 15:47:48 PST
From: (Leonard Erickson) leonard@tessi.UUCP


I suggest that you recheck your figures. You have that starship traveling at
5.0e8 meters/second. But lightspeed is only 3e8 m/s!! And at 1 g, ignoring
relativistic effects, it'll take nearly a year to reach lightspeed.

A month at 1 g gives a velocity of 2.5e7 m/s. This is 1/12th lightspeed and
close enough that you'd have to worry about relativistic effects a bit.
(tau=.997) 

The figures *I* mentioned came from the original 3 books. And there was
nothing in there about the drive being reactionless. That's an *assumption*
that was made by so many people that it became official.

A "reactionless" drive can be handled by assuming that it "pushes" on the
rest of the universe. This would give (in effect) double the efficiency
of a reaction drive. Gravitic effects work that way, but then you'd have to
explain why the people inside the ship experience *any* acceleration.

BTW, nobody ever asks what happens to all the helium (and unfused hydrogen)
with reaction drive, no problem. It's the exhaust. But on a ship with a 
reactionless drive, you either store it, or dump it. Both require changes
in the way things work. 

Dumping it means you leave this nice trail of helium for the sensors to 
pick up. Storing it, means that the tanks aren't empty (and leads to
other problems as well).



-------- TML Message #843 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 843
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 90 10:24:33 EST
From: (Frobozz) wrgate.wr.tek.com!uunet.uu.net!munnari!eldritch.hss.bu.oz.au!grue@tektronix.TEK.COM
Subject: PBe-m game


hiya,

>
>So, without reference to possible characters, here are those who
>*I know* have requested a slot in the Play-by E-mail game coming up
>shortly.  There might still be a few I've missed so don't panic if
>you don't see your name.  Everyone who wants to should get in.
.....Panic panic panic.....

>
>Bob Mahoney					Bob Moynihan
>Gerald Williams				Fredrick Krage
>Nicholas Sylvain				Greg Givler
>Joshua Cunningham				Cynthia Lee
>Dan Corrin					Steven Owens
>Jan Peterson					Eric Halil
>(Mr?) Bertil (Please send your name)
>
>So anyway, those of you who sent in your requests early, never to
>hear from me *DONT PANIC*.  You should all get mail in a day or two
>(I hope).
>

gee, my name isn't in the above list! (and I sent a really early reply too)

PANIC PANIC PANIC PANIC PANIC PANIC PANIC.... and so on it goes for ever ....


For the second time, I'd love to play in the play by e-mail Traveller game!




							Paul Dale
seeya
SNIF

Language Centre              internet    : grue@lance.hss.bu.oz{.au}
Bond University              JANET       : grue%lance.hss.bu.oz@uk.ac.ukc
Gold Coast, Qld 4229         ARPA, bitnet: grue%lance.hss.bu.oz.au@uunet.uu.net
Australia                    UUCP        : ..!uunet!munnari!lance.hss.bu.oz!grue

           >>>>>>>>>> E-Mail address changing next week <<<<<<<<<<

Don't worry about me I'm already insane!



-------- TML Message #844 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 844
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!reed.UUCP!oresoft.uu.net!richard@tektronix.TEK.COM (Richard Johnson)
Subject: Thanks to Peter Berghold...
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 90 10:02:08 PDT


Thanks a lot for that hex-mapping program!

I was cleaning up an electronic mess, transferring mail from agora
to oresoft.  Just about the time I was about halfway through the
source listing, my boss walked in - beautiful timing.

Also, you *implied* but did not state that you were interested in
the E-PBM game I'm starting (well, trying to  start).  Please let me
know the truth: will the Armageddon whatever wrecking company be
present?

Richard Johnson
	richard@oresoft.uu.net
	richard@agora.hf.intel.com



-------- TML Message #845 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 845
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!reed.UUCP!oresoft.uu.net!richard@tektronix.TEK.COM (Richard Johnson)
Subject: E-PBM (This is *OFFICIAL* sort of)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 90 10:32:20 PDT


Here are the initial guidelines and intro for the E-PBM:


1.  Generate you own character (The one individual who asked me to
    do his - I shall.  Just give us all a few days to get the mail
    working.)

	One character ONLY!  And try to keep inflation down - especially
	if its one of your old favorites.  If you've got a few really
	neat items, I want to know (so the bad guys can be prepared.)

	Keep your character handy.  I don't really need to know lots of
	detail about him/her/it.  I do need to know: race, general
	career (scout, journalist, demolitions expert, Imperial fleet
	tactics officer, etc), and general age and condition (right
	forearm prosthetic/cloned, retired old scout curmudgeon, etc)
	Have this information ready when we finally get these x-boats
	running on schedule :).

2.  ALL OF YOU CAN PLAY!  Briefing follows:

	You have been recruited to perform an
    in-depth, in-force reconaissance of an apparently dead ring
	world.  We need several teams; one for contact, one for
	exploration, one for security, one for scientific and historical
	analysis, one for transportation.  Team leaders and mission
	commanders will be selected from the volunteers.

	For security reasons, you do not need to know the exact location
	of this discovery.  Navigators will be given coordinates and
	programs when needed.  The exact details of the missions still
	need to be worked out, but your primary objectives are:

		a) materials, processes, and technology
		b) historical information about the authors of the structure
		c) arms, armor, and weapons of strategic and tactical value
		d) medical knowledge 
		e) other, as assigned

	Some of the volunteers on this mission will have psionic
    training, and medical teams will be issue psi-enhancing drugs.
	psi-screen devices will be available from ship's stores.  Let's
	try to keep our personal prejudices to ourselves, I'm sure
	everyone who volunteers has our best interest at heart.

	[REFEREE ASIDE - if you, as a person, like or dislike psi in
	play, this seems to be a good time to tell your character to let
	it show through.  We might get some good infighting going on.
	As for whether it works, well I've ref'd it before and all the
	players loved it; let's see what happens.  At worst we'll just
	off the buggers :) ]

- --------------------------------
More later after I get some character profiles in.

Richard Johnson
	richard@oresoft.uu.net		(preferred, but unreliable)
	richard@agora.hf.intel.com	(denigrated, but more reliable)
	traveller-request@dadla.wr.tek.com (LAST RESORT 
										  James can get through to
										  me sort of :)



-------- TML Message #846 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 846
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!reed.UUCP!oresoft.uu.net!richard@tektronix.TEK.COM (Richard Johnson)
Subject: E-PBM players
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 90 10:54:05 PDT


Here are all the players I know of so far, with an address.  Those
of you who have not heard from me, I'm still trying.

I believe there's still room for a few more if you want in.  I'm
dividing the game up into smaller parties (hopefully) working
together.

- --------------------------------
Bob Mahoney			rem@psc90.uucp
	I got your mail.  Haven't gotten out yet

Bob Moynihan		moynihan_r@apollo.hp.com
	Got yours, can't get out yet.

Gerald Williams		gsw@moss.att.com
	I think yours works.

Fredrick Krage		milamber@wpi.wpi.edu
	I think yours works.  Does it?

Nicholas Sylvain	sylvain$n@dayton.bitnet
	Received.  Can't send yet.

Greg Givler			givler@cbmvax.commodor.com
	received, can't get out.

Bertil Jonnell		29bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
	received, can't get out.

Joshua Cunningham	jcunning@gliss.lis.uiuc.edu
	I think yours works.  Does it?

Cynthia Lee			ln63w7@sdcc4.ucsd.edu
	received, can't get out.

Dan Corrin			corrin@engrg.uwo.ca
	received, can't get out

Steven Owens		jscratch@eklektik.cs.pitt.edu
	received.
	I have your character - when I get out, you'll get some more
	info.

Jan Peterson		jlp@hamblin.byu.edu
	Not received, can't get out.

Eric Halil			erich@uqspe.cs.uq.oz.au
	Not received, got it from the list.  can't get out yet.

Mark Cook			mark@hpcvss.hp.com
	Got it from the list.  Testing.

Ron Abramson		rona@hpdm192.hp.com
	Got it from the list.  Testing.

Metlay				metlay@vm1.cis.pitt.edu
	Got it from the list.  Testing.

Mac Liaw			macgyver@cis.ohio-state.edu
	Got it from the list.  Testing.

Pauli ?				grue@lance.hss.bu.oz.au
	Got it from the list.  Testing.

Peter Berghold		plb@violin.att.com
	Do you want to play?  Testing.

Colin Roald			hobbit@ac.dal.ca
	Are you the one who signed off "hobbit" when you requested?
		Testing.

Chris Bartlett		cdba_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
		Testing.

Kevin McFadden		fkam_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
		Testing.
- -----------------------------------------------------
All of you make sure you can mail to me:

richard@oresoft.uu.net  or richard@agora.hf.intel.com

and I'll get through to you.  Withtwo machines to mail from, it augh
to work.


	



-------- TML Message #847 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 847
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 90 19:45:14 EST
From: (Andrew Salamon) salamon@sun.acs.udel.edu
Subject: PBM


Please count me in on a play by e-mail game.  I just joined this mailing
list and hope I am not too late to play.

  I know and have the original traveller rules and have played, but do
not own MegaTraveller.

  I think that the (previously made) suggestion that players send in a
basic or detailed outline for a character and the GM fills in the
details sounds best to me.

			/Andrew/
			salamon@sun.acs.udel.edu


-------- TML Message #848 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 848
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!reed.UUCP!oresoft.uu.net!richard@tektronix.TEK.COM (Richard Johnson)
Subject: E-PBM  Rules systems
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 90 12:27:45 PDT


For those participating in the E-PBM that's statring up:

I don't care whether you use the original Traveller rules,
MegaTraveller rules, or even one of the many variants that has been
seen through the years (such as in White Dwarf magazine).  This is
true for characters and for your own personal task rolls.  Just pick
one and stick with it (no choosing best of three...)

My aim is to have a mutually enjoyable sience-fantasy adventure in a
universe that is *mostly* MT-compatible.  That is, I am going to use
MegaTraveller rules as the basis for the vast majority of decisions
I make.  The game will have the "look and feel" of MegaTraveller (I
hope), even if I fumble a few ref-critical task rolls myself :)

Because of the inevitable time delays with mail, you will note a
certain "laissez faire" approach to things.  This puts a little
additional burden on the players, but should add to the realism
(whatever that is) of the play.  id est: don't bring your favorite
character, just to gem him/her/it shot right away by someone else's
favorite character.  I can't/won't prevent it, and it won't be much
fun anyway.  If you're going to antagonize the party (vs co-operate),
do it subtly, so the adventure continues, and your character has a
chance to make a getaway.

Any more questions?

	Richard Johnson
	richard@oresoft.uu.net
	richard@agora.hf.intel.com



-------- TML Message #849 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 849
From: ("45252-Peter L. Berghold") wrgate.wr.tek.com!uunet.uu.net!allegra!violin!plb@tektronix.TEK.COM
Subject: Re: PBe-m game
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 90 8:34:23 EST


>> 
>> 
>> >you don't see your name.  Everyone who wants to should get in.
>> .....Panic panic panic.....
>> 
>> >
>> >Bob Mahoney					Bob Moynihan
>> >Gerald Williams				Fredrick Krage
>> >Nicholas Sylvain				Greg Givler
>> >Joshua Cunningham				Cynthia Lee
>> >Dan Corrin					Steven Owens
>> >Jan Peterson					Eric Halil
>> >(Mr?) Bertil (Please send your name)
>> >
>> >So anyway, those of you who sent in your requests early, never to
>> >hear from me *DONT PANIC*.  You should all get mail in a day or two

Add me too!

- -- 
/* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  */
/*		Peter L. Berghold					*/
/*		System Administrator					*/
/*		AT&T Red Hill Systems Administration Group		*/
/*		1F138	+1 (201) 615-4419				*/
/*		EMAIL (UUCP):	{uunet!allegra|att}!violin!plb		*/
/* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  */




-------- TML Message #850 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 850
From: ("45252-Peter L. Berghold") wrgate.wr.tek.com!uunet.uu.net!allegra!violin!plb@tektronix.TEK.COM
Subject: Armagedon Industries
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 90 8:45:16 EST



>> Also, you *implied* but did not state that you were interested in
>> the E-PBM game I'm starting (well, trying to  start).  Please let me
>> know the truth: will the Armageddon whatever wrecking company be
>> present?
>> 
>> 

Ahhh... do you need them?   <smirk!>

- -- 
/* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  */
/*		Peter L. Berghold					*/
/*		System Administrator					*/
/*		AT&T Red Hill Systems Administration Group		*/
/*		1F138	+1 (201) 615-4419				*/
/*		EMAIL (UUCP):	{uunet!allegra|att}!violin!plb		*/
/* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  */



-------- TML Message #851 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 851
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 90 16:47:25 +0100
From: ("Hans Rancke-Madsen.") wrgate.wr.tek.com!relay.eu.net!diku!rancke@tektronix.TEK.COM
Subject: Fifth Frontier War PBM-game


About the discussed Fifth Frontier War PBM game. How about
making it a multi-player game with each player an admiral?
Each one doing his best to implement orders, gaining
intelligence, getting reports back to superiors and coping with
unforseen circumstances? The GM could assign the admirals
randomly to players. Whoever has the senior admiral on each side
will be in Commander-in-Chief and formulate policy (And don't
forget that the Darrian, Vargr and Sword World admirals will have
objectives which are distinct from those of their respective
allies). Any non-player admirals should be junior to player
admirals, and plotting factor would be dropped (since that is,
I gather, a device to simulate the information lag that is
absent from the board, but would be there with a vengeance in a
PBM game).

I'd love to participate in such a game, but would need some
information, since I don't have FFW (alas). I do have the
Megatraveller map of The Spinward Marches and a copy of the
FFW rules.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk

PS. Richard: I've just sent you applications for joining your
    PBM game to both your addresses. So now you know, in case
    they don't show up.



-------- TML Message #852 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 852
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 90 15:53:04 EST
From: (Dan Pierson) pierson@xenna.encore.COM
Subject: Fifth Frontier War PBM-game


rancke@diku.UUCP writes:
 >                      Whoever has the senior admiral on each side
 > will be in Commander-in-Chief and formulate policy

Well, sort of.  The C-in-C can formulate all the policy he/she/it
wants, but policy directives should be routed through the ref to take
effect when and if the ref (and the receiving admiral*) decide that
they arrive.

*Of course all of your subcommanders are trustworthy and would NEVER
fail to receive an order they disagreed with.

Never?

No, never!

Never?

Well...hardly ever...

PS: I'm both very interested in playing and rather snowed under; have
a copy of the game (played once) but no clear place to set it up; etc.
Looks like I'll have to wait for a second run later this year (hope
there is one).



-------- TML Message #853 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 853
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 90 18:01:42 EST
From: (Andrew Salamon) salamon@sun.acs.udel.edu
Subject: Re:  E-PBM players


Please include me!!

			/Andrew/
			salamon@sun.acs.udel.edu



-------- TML Message #854 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 854
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 90 19:10:04 -0500 (EST)
From: (William Dow Rieder) wr0k+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Starship design revamping


leonard@tessi.uucp writes:

>I suggest that you recheck your figures. You have that starship traveling at
>5.0e8 meters/second. But lightspeed is only 3e8 m/s!! And at 1 g, ignoring
>relativistic effects, it'll take nearly a year to reach lightspeed.

Dropped a decimal -- should be 5.08e7... thanks for catching that. That
means the drive will only be 13,000,000% efficient. Oh well.

>The figures *I* mentioned came from the original 3 books. And there was
>nothing in there about the drive being reactionless. That's an *assumption*
>that was made by so many people that it became official.

from my post:
>The problem is that the MT manuver drives are not rockets!

I was referring to Megatraveller. Check the Ref's Manual p.56:

"This new, artificially generated force pushes against a vessel's
`thrust plates' themselves, which make true reactionless thrusters
a reality for starship-sized vessels."

Not until MT was the power consumption of the manuver drive given
(High Guard had power plant energy point figures, but that was in
addition to powering the drives.)  There was never anything in the
old set that said the manuver drives were rockets, either. Everyone
I ever discussed it with assumed they were rockets, as did I, since
that was the obvious explanation for the high fuel consumption.  I don't
know what Marc Miller and co. intended them to be at that time. Metlay?
My guess is that they were intended to be reactionless all along, otherwise
why switch?

Bertil Jonell writes:

>A suggestion, why not correct both things and with the same amount? If both
>energy production and energy consumption is increased, lets say, 1000 times
>(volume etc left untouched) the net change would be zero (Aside from a
>net gain in space available, because the volume of the part of the power-
>plant thats dedicated to supply the non-drive components is reduced by a
>factor 1000.

This would cause BIG problems for warship design, since the limiting factor
for many designs is power for weapons, and this would make it 1000 times
easier to get.....  It would probably work better to reduce the fuel needed
for the power plant, while keeping the output the same.

					W. Dow Rieder
				alias Capt. Kagariilian Grant



-------- TML Message #855 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 855
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!reed.UUCP!oresoft.uu.net!richard@tektronix.TEK.COM (Richard Johnson)
Subject: E-PBM
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 90 8:38:30 PDT


Once more into the breach!
Damn the torpedoes.  Full ahead!

1.  I can *hear* all of you just fine.  I'm receiving your mail (a 
	veritable flood of it - gee this is fun!) at both intel and
	oregon software.  You can write to me at either address - use
	the one that works better for you.
	
2.  I'm now switching ot plan "B" - I'm going to try to use the 
	intel address for mailing out.  You'd think a software company
	could make its !@#$% mailers work!

3.	Consequently, you wil ALL get a new mail test messages, even if
	you already got one.  To date, no one has confirmed receipt of a
	test message - even though they haven't all bounced.

4.	Thanks for the offer Bob.  I'll let  you know.  Right now,
    though, I have a couple of non-net players who have offered to
	help with a lot of the grunt work.  20 messages a week?  No
	problem - right now I'm bouncing 20 a day!

	I'm not really worried about the overhead.  Check the list for
	the preliminary mission briefing.  I think we can find a spot
	for everyone to be happy.

5.	Thanks to everyone who is still interested, even after this
    fiasco.

	Richard Johnson
	richard@oresoft.uu.net
	richard@agora.hf.intel.com



-------- TML Message #856 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 856
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 90 09:41:59 EST
From: (Greg Givler - PA) givler@cbmvax.commodore.COM
Subject: Re:  Fifth Frontier War PBM-game



I to would like to play, but I don't have a copy of the game, although
I amy be able to get my hands on it tempararily, if it is needed. I do have
a map of the Marches though. So please count me in. 

Greg

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Givler                        | Q-Link: GregGivler
Analyst - Systems Evaluation Group | CompuServe: Greg Givler 76702,647
Commodore Product Assurance        | GEnie: G.Givler
215-431-9100                       | The NET: givler@cbmvax.commodore.com
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Wild Whores couldn't keep me away!" -- George Francisco
"That's Horses, George" -- Matt Sikes -- Alien Nation --  Fox Broadcasting --
===============================================================================



-------- TML Message #857 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 857
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 90 15:05:15 CST
From: (Bennett Crook) crook@gsliss.lis.uiuc.edu
Subject: FFW PBM ?



I'm confused, but that's normal:

Who is it that's running the PBM Fifth Frontier War game?  I must have missed
the name and address.

Bennett Crook
crook@gsliss.lis.uiuc.edu  OR  bacg0231@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu

|  I don't know anything about anything.
|  But I know someone wrote a book on it once.
|  That's why I'm in Library & Information Science.   ;-)







-------- TML Message #858 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 858
From: ("45252-Peter L. Berghold") wrgate.wr.tek.com!uunet.uu.net!allegra!violin!plb@tektronix.TEK.COM
Subject: NPC Generation program.
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 90 16:17:21 EST


OK!  It's survey time again!   I have developed a quick and dirty NPC generator
in C++.   Anybody who has a C++ compiler on their system or is running on a 
HP9000/85x machine and wants a copy of this fine(?) program send me mail and
I will send you a copy of it.  

Why did I write it in C++?   I wanted to start learning the language and it 
seemed the thing to do at the time.   

This same program is being co-developed in Lattice C for a MSDOS machine at 
home.  Shortly it should be available... if I can figure out why my 
"virtual objects" won't work! :-{   GRRRR!

Any takers?

- -- 
/* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  */
/*		Peter L. Berghold					*/
/*		System Administrator					*/
/*		AT&T Red Hill Systems Administration Group		*/
/*		1F138	+1 (201) 615-4419				*/
/*		EMAIL (UUCP):	{uunet!allegra|att}!violin!plb		*/
/* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  */




-------- TML Message #859 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 859
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!reed.UUCP!oresoft.uu.net!richard@tektronix.TEK.COM (Richard Johnson)
Subject: E-PBM info to make char*'s by...
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 90 14:46:19 PDT



							
We now have *32* requests for admission.  We have 5 approved
characters.  3 of these are scouts. 1 is an infantryman, 1 is an
engineer...

Check out the job openings below and decide what you want to do -
I've got plenty of adventure for all (I hope).  At least I got ideas
enough to keep you all busy for a while.

Each team will ideally have 5 or 6 characters.  You should expect to
have your character participate in at least two teams; for example
an engineer with an assault rifle.  

Send your conceptions to me, so I can assign them and get back to
you.  -- Don't worry, Hobbit, I'll get you a character.

Richard Johnson
	richard@oresoft.uu.net
	richard@agora.hf.intel.com


(if you're not an E-PBMer - press `n' NOW!)

								
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------							
								Sign Up Now!

Turnskaad Enterprises has immediate openings for sapients with a
strong sense of loyalty, team work, self-reliance, creative and
inpdependent thinking, and who are prepared to become leaders in the
exploration and scientific communities.  We need strong, young,
experienced, safety-conscious risk-takers.

We need sapients with skill and/or experience to take part in the
exploration, mapping, possible contact, and possible exploitation, of
a newly discovered planetary system.  While dangerous, this mission
promises to open some exciting horizons for science and
colonization.

The exploration party is divided into eight (8) teams.  We still need
help in every area (although we're already getting a lot of
applications from qualified scouts).  Send in your character's
resume right away.  Don't miss out on this exciting opportunity!

Applicants with psi training will be considered, but you are under
no obligation to reveal that you have been trained.  If you are
trained, and accepted for a position, you will receive greater
compensation.

1. Command Team --	Responsible for:
2k - 5kCr/mo			overall success of the mission
						overall safety of the mission

					Members include:
						Mission Commander 
						One member from each of the other teams

					Needed skills:
						admin			liaison
						leadership		communications


2. Transport Team --Responsible for:
1k - 3kCr/mo			delivering exploration party to world 
						bringing home the party and its data
						transporting personnel and equipment
						data/discoveries involving transportation

					Members include:
						Pilots
						Navigators
						Communications experts
						Cargo Handlers

					Needed skills:
						pilot		navigation
						commo		steward
						vacc suit	sensor operations


3. Engineering Team --Resonsible for:
1k - 2kCr/mo				Readiness of all equipment
							Engineering and drives
							Computers
							Instrumentation
							Weapons
							Robotics
							Life support
						Analysis and integration of finds
						Data/discoveries involving engineering

					Members include:
						Ships engineers
						Computer engineers
						Software engineers
						General engineers
						
					Needed skills:
						engineering			life support
						computers			cybernetics
						vacc suit			robotics
						gravitics			shield technology

					
4. Security Team  --Responsible for:
500 - 2kCr/mo			Maintaining security and integrity of mission
+ hazard bonus			Protecting personnel
						Protecting data/discoveries/information
						Mission intelligence

					Members include:
						Marines and Infantry
						Explosives/demolitions experts
						Ships gunners
						Intelligence operatives and analysts

					Needed skills:
						gunner				combat arms
						recon				intelligence
						ship's troops		intrusion
						tactics				armor/vacc suit
						zero-G combat		brawling


5. Medical and Biological Sciences Team --
1.5k - 2.5kCr/mo		Responsible for:
+ find bonus			Well-being of personnel
						Data/discoveries involving medicine/biology
						Analysis and integration of finds

					Members include:
						Doctors (research and practicing)
						Biologists
						Ecologists
						Zoologists
						Botanists
						Geneticists

					Needed skills:
						medicine			biology
						bacteriology		ecology
						botany				horticulture
						genetics			zoology
						microbiology		biophysics
						biochemistry		life support


6. Physical Sciences Team --
1.5k - 2.5kCr/mo	Responsible for:
+ find bonus			Data/discoveries involving physical sciences
						Analysis and integration of finds

					Members include:
						Physicists			Chemists
						Meteoroligists		Civil Engineers
						Geologists			Astronomers

					Needed skills:
						gravitics			physics
						chemistry			electronics
						civil engineering	meteorology
						geology   			oceanography


7. Social Sciences Team --
1.5k - 2.5kCr/mo	Responsible for:
+ find bonus			Contact
						Data/discoveries involving social sciences
						Analysis and integration of finds
						History (mission and world)

					Members include:
						contact specialists		economists
						historians				anthropologists
						linguists

					Needed skills:
						anthropology	economics
						trader			broker
						contact			xeno-communications
						linguistics


8. Synergy Team --	Responsible for:
1.5kCr/mo				Integrating results of other teams
+ mission bonus			Providing understanding and meaning of finds

					Members include:
						generalists		poets
						philosphers		musicians
						clergy

					Needed skills:
						Jack-of-Trades
						broad background in a variety of areas
							plus an in-depth background in at least
							one study, training, or discipline.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, that's all for today...




-------- TML Message #860 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 860
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 90 20:10:47 EST
From: (Andrew Salamon) salamon@sun.acs.udel.edu


I would like the mode of delivery of my traveller articles changed from
instant to digest.  I must use my account for work and the constant flow
of incoming mail is a little inconvenient.

Thanks a lot!

			/Andrew/ 



-------- TML Message #861 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 861
Subject: Re: Starship design revamping 
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 90 10:01:47 PST
From: (Leonard Erickson) leonard@tessi.UUCP


[suggestion for defining agility as the amount of energy required to rotate
the ship about its axis at a certain rate]

Sorry, but rotating the ship, and changing course have nothing to do with
each other. Check the rules on plotting space combat in the old rules or grab a copy of MAYDAY. Both use correct physic in showing the result of course changes

If you are going "north" at 5 km/s, and you use the engines to give yourself
5 km/s of "east" velocity, you are now going "northeast" at 7.07 km/s! You have
to kill the "north" velocity and then add the "east" velocity if you want to
go "east". This could be done with one "burn", I *think* it would be a 7.07 km/s
burn applied in the "southeast" direction!!

Ain't physics fun?

ps. don't evenn *think* about arguing that the drives can get around this via
"magic" physics. This stuff is taking place in an area of physics where we
know what the loopholes are. (If you want "inertialess" drives, that's a 
different matter, but don't forget to watch you intrinsic velocity!! :-)



-------- TML Message #862 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 862
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 90 22:00:54 -0500
From: (Tim Thomas) tim@shire.cs.psu.edu
Subject: A few questions about MegaTraveller



What is the opinion of the readers in this group concerning compatibility
between Striker/High Guard and Megatraveller.

The reason I ask is because many of the tables in the Referee's Manual
are copied directly out of Striker or High Guard (with few or no changes).

Should these Megatraveller tables be the same?

Specific examples are the armor tables (they changed the armor toughness 
values -- Striker) and the configuration costs (High Guard).

Things such as computers were wrong to begin with.

If you have any comments at all about this stuff, please send them to me.

Thanx in advance.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Thomas		tim@shire.cs.psu.edu	*!psuvax1!shire!tim



-------- TML Message #863 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 863
From: (Bertil Jonell) d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: Starship design revamping
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 90 15:57:33 MET DST


> [suggestion for defining agility as the amount of energy required to rotate
> the ship about its axis at a certain rate]
> 
> Sorry, but rotating the ship, and changing course have nothing to do with
> each other. 
> Check the rules on plotting space combat in the old rules or grab a copy of MAYDAY. Both use correct physic in showing the result of course changes
> 
> If you are going "north" at 5 km/s, and you use the engines to give yourself
> 5 km/s of "east" velocity, you are now going "northeast" at 7.07 km/s! You have
> to kill the "north" velocity and then add the "east" velocity if you want to
> go "east". This could be done with one "burn", I *think* it would be a 7.07 km/s
> burn applied in the "southeast" direction!!

Imagine two ships: 
The first one is a fast smuggler with Manuever 6 and Agility 0
(He trusts his engines to keep away from trouble)
The second one is some type of fighter with Manuever 6 and Agility 6

The smuggler is trying to penetrate a RedZone and the fighter is there to
stop such cases of hooliganism.

They have agreed to use the old Traveller (vector) rules :-)
(In fact, I think that the new MegaT system of Space combat movement is
quite unrealistic, To be able to stop travelling by "circling in the same
square", SHEESH!)

In the combat, both ships would move in a totally similar way, since there
is no provision for the effects of agility in movement.
(Of course, it would still affect firing (if they used higuard  or MegaT 
for firing).

That a course change from "north" to "east" requires a "southeast" burn is 
pure "Vectors 101", But the problem is *HOW* to *MAKE* the southeast burn.
Since the trustors works best pushing the ship forwards, a ship wanting to make 
a burn in a certain direction would have to turn to that direction before making
the burn.

Agility helps to make the ship harder to hit, presumably by enabling it to make
small, rapid changes in course. This would indicate that the agility is a 
measure of the ships ability to change course rapidly (It has been stated 
officially that the agility is a measure of the ships ability to change course)

If the agility is a measure of the ships ability to change course, and ships
change course by first turning, then burning,and the Manueverrating is the ships
ability to make the burning, then the Agility must mean the turning.

In the example above this could be implemented by plotting which way each ship
points, and letting high agility ships change this direction faster than the
low agility ships. This would make it quite simple for the fighter to follow the
smuggler, and give agility a real impact on space combat aside from just being 
the ability to "jinking" the ship to make the opponent miss.

- -bertil-
- -- 
Bertil K K Jonell @ Chalmers University of Technology, Gothenburg
NET: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se 
VOICE: +46 31 723971 / +46 300 61004     "Don't worry,I've got Pilot-7"
SNAILMAIL: Box 154,S-43900 Onsala,SWEDEN      (Famous last words)      
"During the high point of the Downes Age, they put Ming the Merciless in charge
of designing California gas stations" W.Gibson "The Gernsback Continuum"



-------- TML Message #864 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 864
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 90 14:13:51 -0500
From: (Mark Gellis) f3w@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Subject: Fusion drives, fuel consumption, etc.



For those making the ultimate mistake of playing around with a
ship design system (all right, all right, I'm glad I did because I
ended up with one I like, but it took a LONG time), and wondering
what kind of Isp, etc. you get from fusion drives, my method may be
helpful.

I cheated.

According to ON CIVILIZED STARS, and a few other sources, a Daedelus-type
fusion pulse starship can reach between 12% and 15% c as a terminal 
velocity.  I understand the Isp for this vessel was about 1,000,000.  I
have been told by people who know physics a lot better than I do that 
the D-He3 pulse system the Daedelus people talk about is inefficient,
that fusion drives using a containment system to raise the temperature
of the plasma to enormous levels and then direct the superheated plasma 
as high energy reaction mass could give much higher Isps.

Suffice that, all things being said and done, I assume a standard fusion
drive and 30% of your ship's mass dedicated to fuel will give you a peak
velocity close to 2% c.  If you were loony enough to build a multi-stage
vessel with the Daedelus' 50-to-1 fuel-payload ratio, you could get a 
terminal velocity (no way down) of about 30%-35% c.  Of course, if you
want to build a stl starship, the real choice is matter-antimatter, which
I have arbitrarily placed as being 10 times better than fusion--a single
stage vessel with 30% fuel can go to 20% c and decelerate down again,
multi-stage vessels can reach true relativistic speeds.

In other words, I assume that fusion drives with several thousand years
of technological improvements, scientific breakthroughs, and engineering
refinements behind them can do 2 to 3 times better than the early 
prototypes being designed by people who were still (at the time) 50
years away from producing controlled fusion power.  Or am I being
too optimistic?

   Mark



-------- TML Message #865 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 865
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 90 09:33:29 EST
From: (Greg Givler - PA) givler@cbmvax.commodore.COM
Subject: Re: Starship design revamping



Stuff about Mayday, I would have included the mail article, but we have
changed vaxes so the system is without any type of emacs support. And
I don't know vi at all.

I remember playing Mayday once. It was quite fun and very physics intensive.
Also, I remember that the game took forever. We did a space battle between
to 100 ton Scouts with triple turrets, Laser, Sand and Missile. It is 
quite an interesting game. 

Greg

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Givler                        | Q-Link: GregGivler
Analyst - Systems Evaluation Group | CompuServe: Greg Givler 76702,647
Commodore Product Assurance        | GEnie: G.Givler
215-431-9100                       | The NET: givler@cbmvax.commodore.com
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Wild Whores couldn't keep me away!" -- George Francisco
"That's Horses, George" -- Matt Sikes -- Alien Nation --  Fox Broadcasting --
===============================================================================



-------- TML Message #866 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 866
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 90 09:28:09 EST
From: (Greg Givler - PA) givler@cbmvax.commodore.COM
Subject: Re:  NPC Generation program.



I don't have C++ but if and when you get a Lattice C version for MS-DOS
I would like the source so that I can port it to the Amiga. 

Greg

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Givler                        | Q-Link: GregGivler
Analyst - Systems Evaluation Group | CompuServe: Greg Givler 76702,647
Commodore Product Assurance        | GEnie: G.Givler
215-431-9100                       | The NET: givler@cbmvax.commodore.com
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Wild Whores couldn't keep me away!" -- George Francisco
"That's Horses, George" -- Matt Sikes -- Alien Nation --  Fox Broadcasting --
===============================================================================



-------- TML Message #867 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 867
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 90 22:36:00 EST
From: HOBBIT@ac.dal.ca
Subject: Drives and velocity


In addition to the discussion on velocities and vector addition:

Things aren't quite so simple (as simple addition) when speeds approach c (speed
    of light: 300 000 km/s).  because the net velocity can never exceed c, a
"horizontal" thrust can decrease "vertical" velocity.  Special relativity gets
really weird at times (this is relatively ordinary.)

        Colin Roald



-------- TML Message #868 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 868
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 90 11:52 EST
From: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Subject: Re: Starship design revamping


[This came to jamesp@dadla.wr.tek.com, looks like it was meant for
traveller@dadla.wr.tek.com.  Watch those automatic reply headers! -- James]

To Dow, and Bertil, and the other wranglers over fusion drives:

There is no official line about the operation of maneuver drives in
Trav Classic, to the best of my knowledge. The information was codified
and made "official" by Digest Group, probably with no knowledge that
they were asking for trouble from people who could work out the math.
I'll be honest: I avoid starship combat like the plague in this game,
and when I need a starship designed, well, I, uh.... Oh, hell, I may
as well own up and be honest. I get *Dow* to do it for me. There, I've
admitted it, I'm a lazy slob who can't stand the aggravation of 
haggling over tonnages when the drives can generate enough free power to 
push ANYTHING. So sue me. |->

Anyway, for what it's worth (that and 50 yen gets you a video game), I have
always assumed that fusion drives were reaction based. It makes maneuvers
like the Jerusalem Shuffle take on a whole new meaning.

metlay
(still in Tennessee, argh)

Dow: Nice to see you (and Grant) on TML at last! Welcome! And pass along
my best regards to Rob (Sanchez), Paul (O'Connor), Boris (Kherkhoulloth),
and David (Jaeger). I'll be home in a couple of weeks, and we can get
the game up and running again, so I'll have more story material |-> .



-------- TML Message #869 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 869
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!reed.UUCP!oresoft.uu.net!richard@tektronix.TEK.COM (Richard Johnson)
Subject: Ron Abramson
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 90 9:05:33 PDT


Ron,

I think I have an incorrect address for you.  Mail is bouncing
both left an right (not just right).  Please drop me a note 
again with an address.

Thanks
Richard Johnson
	richard@oresoft.uu.net
	richard@agora.hf.intel.com



-------- TML Message #870 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 870
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!reed.UUCP!oresoft.uu.net!richard@tektronix.TEK.COM (Richard Johnson)
Subject: What the %$#*& IS agility anyway?
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 90 9:38:07 PDT


Agility: it is amazing how much is required to keep from getting
sucked into these discussions :)
(was Starship design revamping)

Bertil Jonnell and someone (please forgive me for fogetting your
name) have been discussing the role (roll?) of agility in space
combat.  I'm afraid I'm no clearer now than when I read the rules.

Let me summarize how I see things:

1.  The MOST acceleration you can get is 6-g.  Period.
		(Rules)

2.  In space there are 6 degrees of freedom; 3 linear, 3 rotational.
		(Physics - ignoring time)

3.  A change in any one degree of freedom will have no change
		on the others.  (Physics again)

4.  Agility is a figure you use (somehow) to determine who has
		"initiative" in a space combat (I think?) or you use to
		deterrmine how easy it is for your ship to make `sudden'
		changes in speed or direction. (Rules I think)

5.  Agility is a number between 1 and 6, inclusive.  (Rules)


One of the following two is (I believe) the proper way to interpret
the rules.  Which one?

******* EITHER:

`agility' is a number you *subtract* from you maneuver number 
to find out just how much acceleration you can get in a real hurry.  
i.e. if you have maneuver 4 and agility 1, you can get 3-g `right now' 
and 4 once you line up the axis of the ship with the direction you 
want to go.

******** OR:

`agility' is a value you can *add* to your maneuver figure to 
indicate how you could overstress the drives and hull in emergency 
situations (like combat) for short times.  i.e. if you have a maneuver 
4 and an agility 1, you can get 5-g `right now' and 4-g only a `short'
(whatever that is) time later.

Which makes more sense, both in terms of rules and "the real
universe"?

- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Technical comment - related but not directly to the above...

The effect of either of the above scenarios is the same.
Space battles become `running battles' or set-piece battles.  Even
at the maximum short-term 12-g limit of the second method, you could
not actually maneuver fast enough to escape the guns behind you;
those guns can rotate much more slowly and still track.  The *best*
you can hope for is to break their lock-on by sudden, violent,
maneuvers (aka jinking) until you can enter hyperspace or get help.
The second-best is to turn and fight.  There is no real advantage to
a high maneuver number except that it lets you get away.

Of course there's always JATO boost. :)

Richard



|=pipe, 



-------- TML Message #871 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 871
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 90 22:28:38 EST
From: (Chris Bartlett) cdba_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
Subject: mail hassles



This is for Richard. Sorry about taking up bandwidth, but we're having a
little problem.

Richard,
	I've gotten two of your messages so far, and I gather that you've
sent others right? Everything seems okay on my end, though I had trouble
mailing you earlier tonight (1/29) when the mail bounced. I'll keep tryin'
though...

		Chris




-------- TML Message #872 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 872
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 90 01:11:01 -0500 (EST)
From: (William Dow Rieder) wr0k+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Agility


Some remarks on Agility --

	According to the Ref's Manual, agility is "the ability
to change your craft's orientation over time". It then gives a
rather poor example involving the _Queen_Mary_ and a rowboat.
The example is bad because water resists passage strongly, and
can be pushed against while space does neither. However, the
definition does look reasonable. In the Starship Operators'
Handbook, published by Digest Group and an official part of
Traveller, the operation of the manuver drive and agility are
discussed in detail.
	The manuver drive is a collection of "thruster plates"
that push the ship (reactionlessly) in whatever direction it
wishes to accelerate. The key to agility is that the plates
are more effective in one direction (usally forward) than
others. Thus, like rockets, the ship has to change its
orientation to face in the direction it wishes to accellerate
in order to use its drives at full effectiveness. In order to
change its orientation, the "best" method according to the
Handbook is to rotate the ship around a central gyroscope
of superdense material spinning at several million rpm's.
The other method discussed is using attitude jets.
	My understanding of how agility works is that a high
agility ship can change its facing very quickly (in a matter
of seconds) so it can change its direction of thrust.
This enables it to "jink" rapidly, throwing off fire since
at the ranges for space combat (~25,000 - 250,000+ km) the
speed of light delay becomes important. It doesn't matter
how large the absolute velocity of the ship is, because the
ship's future position can be calculated and aimed for
("leading" the target); the important part is the how quickly
it can change its vector. Any ship can vary its vector in the
direction it is pointing by pulsing the drives on and off, but
this gives only 1 degree of freedom. The ability to change the
direction of thrust quickly (by turning the ship) allows the
ship to jink in any direction, thus making it harder to hit.
	How the ship converts its power to agility (using the
formulas given), and how much is needed for optimal dodging,
is a different question. I can try to check out the reasonablity
of the formulas if people are interested.
	If anyone has questions, comments or corrections, let
me know.

					W. Dow Rieder
				alias Capt. Kagariilian Grant

 	When the only tool you have is a hammer, all your problems
start to look like nails...



-------- TML Message #873 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 873
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 90 01:55:23 -0500 (EST)
From: (William Dow Rieder) wr0k+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Xboats


	Xboats in Megatraveller

	I don't know if anyone else has tried to design Xboats
using the MT design rules, but I got some interesting results
so I thought I would post them.
	When I built my first Xboat according to the specs from
Traders and Gunboats (Jump-4, no manuver drive, 2 staterooms, etc),
I ended up with room left over. A LOT of room left over -- more
than half the ship! I added a 1G manuver drive, since the reason
the original Xboat didn't have one was lack of space. There is
still a lot of space left over, so you can put more stuff in if
you want. Maybe it could be used as a cargo carrier...:-)

CraftID: Xboat, TL15, Mcr 23.366
Hull:	90/225, Disp=100, Config=4USL, Armor=40G
	Unloaded=500 tons, Loaded=~1200 tons (with cargo)
Power:	1/2, Fusion=252 Mw, Duration=30/90
Loco:	2/4, Manuver=1, 5/10, Jump=4, Agility=0
Commo:	Radio=System, Maser=System
Sensors: PassEMS=Interstellar, ActEMS=FarOrbit
	Densitometer=250m, Neutrino=10kw
Off/Def: DefDM= +2
Control: Computer=1bis x3, Large Holodisplay
	Environ=basic env, basic ls, extend ls, grav plates,
	inertial comp
Accomm:	Crew=1 (Bridge/Engineer=1), Staterooms=2
Other:	Fuel=429 kliters, Cargo=650 kliters (!)
	ObjSize=average, EMLevel=Faint

	The only change needed at TL13 is to double the size and
cost of the powerplant, with a slight increase in fuel.
	I don't know about other people, but if I were a scout
I would much prefer this ship as a mustering-out benefit. A
cargo capacity of ~50 tons and Jump-4 would make for a quite
good merchant, and its cheaper than a scout to boot.
	I have designed quite a few ships, mostly merchants
and small warships/pirates, so if there is interest I could
post them. Comments welcome.

					W. Dow Rieder
				alias Capt. Kagariilian Grant

 	When the only tool you have is a hammer, all your problems
start to look like nails...




-------- TML Message #874 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 874
From: (Bertil Jonell) d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: Xboats
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 90 11:19:35 MET DST


W. Dow Rieder writes: 
> 	I don't know if anyone else has tried to design Xboats
> using the MT design rules, but I got some interesting results
> so I thought I would post them.
> 	When I built my first Xboat according to the specs from
> Traders and Gunboats (Jump-4, no manuver drive, 2 staterooms, etc),
> I ended up with room left over. A LOT of room left over -- more
> than half the ship!

It depends on two things: 
1. MegaT does not require a ship to have a bridge. That's 270 kl extra to
play with.
2. MegaT jumpdrives draw much less fuel than before. But, fuel for one jump-2
does *not* equal fuel for two jump-1 anymore!

Regarding Xboats:
There is enough room to easily fit a Jump-6 drive, and perhaps, enough
fuel to power *yet another* jump at jump-6. It all depends on whether the
manueverdrive runs at full power during jump, or if it just powers the 
Environ and Controls, and if you refrain from installing certain parts of
the environment stuff in relatively unusable parts of the ship like the 
fueltanks. (May have som effects by non-smooth feed of the jumpdrive and
resulting higher frequency of misjumps, though)

Regarding this Xboat:
I am not sure, but shouldn't a ship have a computer with a number equal to the
max jump it can perform? I'm sure this was the case in {Old|Classic|Version1}
Traveller, and I assume that this have not changed...

> CraftID: Xboat, TL15, Mcr 23.366
> Hull:	90/225, Disp=100, Config=4USL, Armor=40G
> 	Unloaded=500 tons, Loaded=~1200 tons (with cargo)
> Power:	1/2, Fusion=252 Mw, Duration=30/90
> Loco:	2/4, Manuver=1, 5/10, Jump=4, Agility=0
> Commo:	Radio=System, Maser=System
> Sensors: PassEMS=Interstellar, ActEMS=FarOrbit
> 	Densitometer=250m, Neutrino=10kw
> Off/Def: DefDM= +2
> Control: Computer=1bis x3, Large Holodisplay
> 	Environ=basic env, basic ls, extend ls, grav plates,
> 	inertial comp
> Accomm:	Crew=1 (Bridge/Engineer=1), Staterooms=2
> Other:	Fuel=429 kliters, Cargo=650 kliters (!)
> 	ObjSize=average, EMLevel=Faint

I'll try to post the very strange design I got on file at home: The proof that
is is possible to make a scoutship with Jump-6 Manuever-6 and Agility-6, 
What? Cargospace? Weapons? Well, no, not really, but is such things really
necessary? :-)
(It is a design that assumes that the fuel consumption en-route in jumpspace
is low.)

Obligatory Joke:

Paranoid Player: "All this is really yet another proof that the *real* reason 
behind why the Xboats is just Jump-4 is that the Imperium wishes to keep
the great unwashed in the dark when issues of importance arise!"

Other Player: "Oh, I always thought that 'the great unwashed' was a K'Kree
vaccsuit!"

- -- 
Bertil K K Jonell @ Chalmers University of Technology, Gothenburg
NET: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se 
VOICE: +46 31 723971 / +46 300 61004     "Don't worry,I've got Pilot-7"
SNAILMAIL: Box 154,S-43900 Onsala,SWEDEN      (Famous last words)      
"During the high point of the Downes Age, they put Ming the Merciless in charge
of designing California gas stations" W.Gibson "The Gernsback Continuum"



-------- TML Message #875 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 875
From: ("Brent L. Woods") woodsb@gn.ecn.purdue.edu
Subject: Re: Xboats
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 90 8:03:40 EST



 In message: <wZlHdPy00W0IM=xEdD@andrew.cmu.edu> William Dow Rieder writes:
 >
 >     Xboats in Megatraveller
 >
 >     I don't know if anyone else has tried to design Xboats using the MT
 >design rules, but I got some interesting results so I thought I would post
 >them.
 >     When I built my first Xboat according to the specs from Traders and
 >Gunboats (Jump-4, no manuver drive, 2 staterooms, etc), I ended up with room
 >left over.  A LOT of room left over--more than half the ship!  I added a 1G
 >manuver drive, since the reason the original Xboat didn't have one was lack of
 >space.  There is still a lot of space left over, so you can put more stuff in
 >if you want.  Maybe it could be used as a cargo carrier...:-)
 >
 >CraftID:  Xboat, TL15, Mcr 23.366
                   ^^^^

     I just took a look at Supplement 9, Fighting Ships, and the Xboat was
listed as a *TL10* design.  I haven't had any time to check this out with the
design rules (and won't, for that matter, for several days), but would this
make a difference?

 >     The only change needed at TL13 is to double the size and cost of the
 >powerplant, with a slight increase in fuel.

     Again, the reference I have handy (right under my Amiga, as a matter
of fact, in the keyboard garage) says TL10.  Then again, it also gives TL9
for the Type S Scout/Courier.  I can remember getting a substantial
improvement on that by upping the Tech Level to 15 just with High Guard
rules.


- --
     Brent

INTERNET:  woodsb@gn.ecn.purdue.edu  /  woodsb@attctc.dallas.tx.us
USENET:  pur-ee!gn.ecn.purdue.edu!woodsb
FIDONET:  Brent.Woods@p303.f40.n201.z1.fidonet.org  (from Internet)  or
          Brent Woods@1:201/40.303  (from FidoNet)
USNAIL:  320 Brown St., #406  /  W. Laf., IN  47906
PHONE:  +1 (317) 743-8421 (voice)




-------- TML Message #876 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 876
From: (Adrian Hurt) adrian%cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
Subject: What the %$#*& IS agility anyway?
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 90 14:46:32 BST


> Let me summarize how I see things:
> 
> 1.  The MOST acceleration you can get is 6-g.  Period.
> 		(Rules)

What acceleration did the Apollo rockets achieve?

...

> 4.  Agility is a figure you use (somehow) to determine who has
> 		"initiative" in a space combat (I think?) or you use to
> 		deterrmine how easy it is for your ship to make `sudden'
> 		changes in speed or direction. (Rules I think)

The first of those is probably from "High Guard", in which Agility also acts
to hinder incoming fire from meson guns and particle accelerators. (The roll
to hit gets the target's Agility subtracted from it.)

> 5.  Agility is a number between 1 and 6, inclusive.  (Rules)

Between 0 and 6.  A ship might not have a manoeuvre drive, e.g. X-boats.

> One of the following two is (I believe) the proper way to interpret
> the rules.  Which one?

"High Guard" calculates a ship's agility by dividing its available power by its
tonnage.  "Available" means power which isn't needed for weapons, computers,
etc.  Which means that some ships can have 0 agility, even if they have working
manoeuvre drives.  A type S scout ship with a pair of lasers is one example.

There is also "emergency agility".  To work this out, divide the ship's power
by its mass.  Forget weapons, computers, etc. - this is an emergency, we want
to _move_!  However, the emergency agility may not exceed the ship's manoeuvre
rating.

That's the quick'n'dirty way.  Assuming the ship doesn't have a big enough
power supply to drive all weapons, computers and manoeuvre drives at once,
I allow calculations to be made on how much power is given to weapons, how
much to manoeuvre, etc.  The agility is then calculated as usual.  Allocating
power like this gives the engineer PC something to do.

> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Technical comment - related but not directly to the above...
> 
> The effect of either of the above scenarios is the same.
> Space battles become `running battles' or set-piece battles.  Even
> at the maximum short-term 12-g limit of the second method, you could
> not actually maneuver fast enough to escape the guns behind you;
> those guns can rotate much more slowly and still track.

This is something I never liked.  All weapons are in turrets.  A ship ought
to be able to have fixed weapons.  Either the same weapons, but taking much
less space; or bigger weapons in the same space.  In particular, a fighter
ought to be able to take a big missile on a fixed mount, instead of those
small 50kg things in its turret.  That way, it might be able to do some harm
to a decent sized ship.

 "Keyboard? How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk



-------- TML Message #877 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 877
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!reed.UUCP!oresoft.uu.net!richard@tektronix.TEK.COM (Richard Johnson)
Subject: Status of E-PBM (also those $%^# mailers)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 90 8:42:12 PDT


The game is now starting.  If you don't have your character in yet,
don't worry.  You still have a week or two to do that.  I'll
integrate you into the party as "your applications are accepted".

I think most of the mail is actually getting through now, except
for (ironically) the first three people to respond.

Please:  would Josh Krage, Steve Owens, and Nicholas Sylvain
		 send me their addresses again?  Yours have consistently
		 not gone out (I can receive your mail).

We presently have (Interesting trivia):
	4 Canadians
	1 Dane
	1 Swede
	2 Aussies
	1 U.K. citizen
	n U.S. types
			all playing in the game!  I'm impressed.

Richard



-------- TML Message #878 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 878
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 90 13:03:44 EST
From: (Fiver Toadflax) 09nilles%cuavax.dnet@netcon.cua.edu
Subject: re: Xboats


In your article (W. Dow Rieder), you states that there is LOTS of room left
over in the Xboat.  I don't have the new MT rules, but there is still lots
of room left over in the old High Gaurd rules.  As I recal in Traders and
Gunboats, it says that all that extra space is used for a VERY big computer
to store and encrypt/decrypt the mail that is being sent along the route.

So if you were to take out the computer(which as I percieved, was around
20 tons), you would have room for a manuever drive and cargo.  But also
don't forget that the X-boat is not streamlined.

                 Dave
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
   Nuke 'um Till They Glow	     |	Money Talks.
       Then Shoot Them in the Dark   |	   Mine Only knows how to say bye.
- -------------------------------------+------------------------------------
   Peace through superior firepower  |





-------- TML Message #879 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 879
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 90 15:53:36 EST
From: ("William B. Morrison") morrison@pyr.gatech.edu
Subject: Star System Digest Volume 2 Issue 1 addendum


Date: Thu, 25 Jan 90 13:07:18
From: Bill Morrison (Coordinator) <morrison@pyr.gatech.edu>
Reply-To: Traveller System Generation Group@pyr.gatech.edu
Subject: Traveller System Generation Group Digest V1 #1 - addendum
To: traveller@dadla.wr.tek.com


Traveller System Generation Thu, 25 Jan 90    Volume 2: Issue:1 - addendum

Today's Topics:
                             Hex mapping algorithm
                          Results of the questionaire
                            Table handling routines


***************************************************************************
** STAR SYSTEM DIGEST: star system generation, storage, and display.     **
** All followups on this topic should be sent to morrison@pyr.gatech.edu **
** They will be edited for clarity and resent to the Traveller Mailing.  **
***************************************************************************

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Jan 90 09:35:34 PST (Mon)
From: jamesp@dadla.wr.tek.com
Subject: Hex mapping algorithm
To: traveller@dadla.wr.tek.com

This article looks appropriate.  My policy is, in general, when someone
posts something to USENET news, it can be redistributed to the list
without explicit permission, as long as it remains completely intact.

- ------- Forwarded Message

> From: Bertil Jonell

Hi!
I remember someone asked about algorithms for hex mapping a while back
There is a posting on that by Jon Watte (d88-jwa@nada.kth.se)
I repost it here and I hope he won't be mad at me (again :-) 

- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Article 1220 of rec.games.programmer:
> Path: mathrt0.math.chalmers.se!chalmers!sunic!draken!d88-jwa
> From: d88-jwa@nada.kth.se (Jon Watte)
> Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer
> Subject: Re: hex map
> Message-ID: <2717@draken.nada.kth.se>
> Date: 13 Jan 90 14:00:57 GMT
> References: <157.25AEE023@metnet.FIDONET.ORG>
> Reply-To: d88-jwa@nada.kth.se (Jon W{tte)
> Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
> Lines: 96

> In article <157.25AEE023@metnet.FIDONET.ORG> 
> bwood@f54.n147.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Barry Wood) writes:

>> A friend of mine is interested in any logarithms, etc that might 
>> help him 
				       ~~~~~~~~~~

Algorythms, I presume. (*I* don't have english for native language,
so don't blame my spelling)

2 minutes of thought yields:

A hex map can be represented in a plain 2d array. From now on I
presume you are familiar with hex numbering:

0000        0002        0004
      0001        0003
0100        0102        0104
      0101        0103
0200        0202        0204

etc.

One easily notes that every second column is half a hex lower
down. This is no problem; just raise it:

0000  0001  0002  0003  0004

0100  0101  0102  0103  0104

etc.

Now, to display this array (say, array[X_SIZ][Y_SIZ] of char)
you use the following function:

void
display(a)
char ** a;
{
	int x, y;

	for(y=0; y<Y_SIZ; x++) {
		for(x=0; x<X_SIZ; y++) {
			move(x, x&1 + y*2);
			addch(a[x][y]);
		}
	}
	refresh();
}

if move(x,y) moves x == column, y == row (curses is other way round)

Second problem, movement. Say you are in hex yyxx and want to go
in direction d where 0 = N, 1 = NE, 2 = SE etc. (North == up)
the quick & dirty solution is:

void
move(x, y, d)
int *x, *y, d;
{
	switch(d) {
	case 0:
		*y--;
		break;
	case 1:
		*y -= (*x &1) ? 0 : 1;
		*x++;
		break;
	case 2:
		*y += (*x &1);
		*x++;
		break;
	case 3:
		*y++;
		break;
	case 4:
		*y += (*x &1);
		*x--;
		break;
	case 5:
		*y -= (*x &1) ? 0 : 1;		
		*x--;
		break;
	default:
		/* Invalid move */
		;
	}
}

Of course, you'll want to check against movements running of
the map too... :-)

These functions do everything for you - it isn't any harder
than that !

h+
- - -- 
   ---  Stay alert !  -  Trust no one !  -  Keep your laser handy !  ---
             h+@nada.kth.se  ==  h+@proxxi.se  ==  Jon Watte
                    longer .sig available on request

- ------- End of Forwarded Message

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Nov 89 11:34:38 EST
From: Dan Corrin <dan@engrg.uwo.ca>
Subject: Results of the questionaire
To: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu, burdick@hpindl1.hp.com, dan@engrg.uwo.ca,

Here are the questionaire results with my comments added. Some difficulty
was encountered esp. in quantifing things like expertise. Words like some,
lots, expert are relative terms, and I had to do some guessing as to
exactly which category to place people. i.e. These results are not highly
scientific, some errors may be present. The next step (beyond any further
discussion of the topics here, is who voulunteers as co-lead designer/
programmer. Whithout further ado, the results:


This questionaire may reflect the biases of the writers, feel free to
enter your own comments.

GENERAL INFORMATION
- -------------------

Name:_______12 Respondants_____     E-Mail address:______yes for everyone__

What machine(s) and OS(s) are available to you?:
It looks like suns and unix are very popular, however there is some
who only have DOS. Looks like SUN/UNIX with DOS port.

Mac II		2	VMS		2
Sun 3		8	DOS		5
Sun Sparc	2	UNIX	       10
NeXT			OTHER		3
Apple II	2
Silicon Graphics
HP9000
IBM XT/AT	5
VAXen		3
DEC 3100
Amiga 2000

Do you hace access to a PostScript printer?
Most have PostScript access, so we can aim our "preferred" output at
Postscript, but again, text should be available where possible.
YES:	9 	NO:	3

Do you have a C compiler? If yes, specify:______________________
Notice the inherent bias towards C, No Do you program in basic?.
One N/A was recieved from a non-programmer, I wasn't sure if it meant
no compiler, or I'm not programming anyway.
YES:	11 	NO:	0

A C++ compiler? If yes, specify:________________________________
Looks like C++ is out, one YES on C++ preferred C, Theoretically
one could have C++ staements in a #define, but I doubt it would work
well.
YES:	4 	NO:	7

Years and type of C Programming Experience:
Looks like no problem getting people with expertise...
None:	2 	Some:	3 	Lots:	7

Do you have experience writing code to generate PostScript?
In C at least...
None:	9 	Some:	3 	Lots:	0

Do you wish to contribute as a programmer, tester, or as technical
consultant?
Suprisingly few for yes, most had time constraints. Though I'm sure
all of us have school/jobs (or both in my case :-)
Programmer:
YES:		3 	NO:		5 	YES/PROBLEMS:	4
We can assume all programmers will test, however a few people testing
who didn't develop the code is good.
Tester/consultant:		3 

If you would like to program, would you be interested in being lead
or co-lead programmer (you would be responsible for coming up with
the preliminary design)?
I placed reluctant yeses, and time constrained people in the co-lead
position. Due to limited number of programmers, this seems kinda heavy
on the leader side.
YES:	1 	CO:	3 	NO:	3
(The only yes was mine..I guess i'm the voulunteer).
People for Co-lead are:
	Peter Berghold
	Richard Johnson (Design)
	James Perkins
	Bill Morrison (Post Xmas? - Listed as No)

Do you think we should use a co-ordinated programming effort using
software engineering techniques, or should we proceed in an ad hoc
manner with everyone contributing as they have time?
Wide opinions on this one.(note "'s are teken from peoples
responses)...Coordinted wins out:
"Is this project so complex that we need formal techniques?"
"A co-ordinated effort is a *must* (this means software engineering
   techniques)." (Good thing I am in the process of getting a
master's in Software Engineering...)
Most of you specified that it should be fun. I alwyas find that coding
something I like is fun. However if we are to have a good product, there
has to be a certain level of coodination.
Co-ordinated:	7 	Ad-hoc:		2	Both:	1

Do you possess knowledge in the following areas, and to what degree?
As expected a wide variety of backgrounds, For the scale, None, some are
self-explanatory, though I had to guess sometimes as to how a person's
description translated..Lots is up to a bachelor's degree, expert is
a post-graduate degree, or professional employment
Demogrphics and biology are particularily weak.

Astronomy/Astrophysics        -
None:	3 	Some:	2 	Lots:	3 	Expert:	2
Geology                       -
None:	5 	Some:	4 	Lots:	1 	Expert:	0
Archeology                    -
None:	5 	Some:	4 	Lots:	1 	Expert:	0
History/Political Science     -
None:	3 	Some:	6 	Lots:	1 	Expert:	1
Demographics                  -
None:	8 	Some:	2 	Lots:	0 	Expert:	0
Biology                       -
None:	4 	Some:	6 	Lots:	0 	Expert:	0
Fractals/graphics generation  -
None:	3 	Some:	5 	Lots:	2 	Expert:	0

Are there any other general areas of knowledge that you have that you
feel should be considered in generating star/planetary systems (at any 
level of detail) for Traveller/MegaTraveller?
Lots of good stuff here..

Macro-Economics
Anthropolgy
Economics
Military science (twice)
meterorology
graph theory

General Implementation Considerations
- -------------------------------------
(On to the more difficult/subjective questions....)

   System Considerations - This is to provide a general direction for deisgn.
   ---------------------
   If Build 1 is one program that generates strict Traveller/MegaTraveller
   systems, what do you envision Build 2 as being (eg. more functions
   to build 1, a planetary information generator taking input from
   the build 1 program, a trade/X-boat route generator taking input
   from build 1, etc)?
This was probably the least understood question particularily the
concept of "build". Actually Bill's response to his own question was counted
as "confused" - all the people who never really got around to answering the
question  perhaps it is me that is confused? :-)
Planet info:	5 	Maps:	1	Confused:	5

   How should we represent the (as yet unkown) data types?
   [Binary/Record | ASCII] [Single File | Multiple Files]
(This may be a design problem anyway, but preferences from the user is
important - actually the hardest part of design is the specification, as the
user doesn't know what he/she wants, ie. the entire questionaire is really
a ploy on the part of us software engineering types (Bill and Myself):-)
(One Enterprising person already has a basis for the file structure)
Strong opinions on this one, binary was perferred by some solely on space
(ie. they don't have much, ASCII for readability)
Binary:		2 	ASCII:		8 	Both/Either:	2
Unanimously (of those who answered this part) Multiple files.
Single:		0 	Multiple:	9

   Should our production system be one program or a series of programs?
   If a series of programs, how should we break them up (physical, political,
   scale [sector, subsector, system, planet], other)?
One:	1
Series:	9	Scale: 4	Order:	1	Compatability: 1
It looks like series wins out, the method of splitting was in contention.

   What co-ordinate system should we use for sector numbering?
   [Reference|Galaxy Centre|Other]
As far as I know there is no "official" numbering scheme, the sectors are
referred to by name, however computers perfer numbers, and referring to
them by name (index in name file) is actually an "other" sector numbering
scheme)
Reference:	4 	Centre:		2 	Any/Unsure:	4 
Other:		1

   Should we include some data items used by other gaming systems
   (E.g. Galactic Conquest, Exploting Space, Other Suns, and Space Opera)?
I guess the result of this is to include the other system stuff as an
option, perhaps at compile time, so the data files don't have extra fields.
Yes:	7
No:	4

   Should we include religion generation (for example from the world builders 
   handbook), as this may be offensive to some?
Ditto.
Yes:		5
Optional:	4
No:		2


   Capabilities Considerations
   ---------------------------
   The following is a list of capabilities that may eventually be included
   in the final build of our system. On a scale of 1 to 10 (1=soon,
   10=later), please indicate at what stage a certain feature should
   be included into our system. A "1" generally means 'to be included in
   build 1, and a "10" means 'to be included in the last build before
   production - if at all'. Remember to add your own write-ins.

The first numbers are the responses, the last the average. If you
want other statistics (ie. median, std. deviation) calculate them yourself.
I don't guarantee the averages, but the raw data should be correct.

   Map Types  (Note the wide opinion on 3-D)
   ---------               
   Empire maps               : 1 1 2 4 5 5 6 8 8 10 10		5.45
   Sector maps               : 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 5 5 6 10		3.18
   Subsector maps            : 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 10		1.91
   Solar System maps         : 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 5		2.73
   Planetary maps            : 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 4 5 6 6 8		3.58
   Regional (planetary) maps : 1 2.5 3 4 4 5 5 7 8 8 9 10	5.54
   City maps                 : 1 3.5 5 6 7 7 7 10 10 10 10 10	7.21
   Display in '3-D'          : 1 2 3 7 8 9 10 10 10 10 10 10	7.50
   Trade maps                : 9
                                
   Info to be displayed on maps
   ----------------------------
   Number of planets in system : 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 3 6 10		2.70
   Planet Types/Symbols        : 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 5		1.45
      (exotic atmos, planet interdicted, stellar type, etc)
   Black Holes                 : 2 2 2 3 3 4 5 6 7 8 10		4.73
   Neutron Stars               : 2 3 3 4 5 5 6 7 8 10		5.30
   Brown Dwarfs                : 2 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7 10		5.20
   Other stellar phenomenon    : 2 3 4 4 5 5 5 5 6 6 10		5.00
   Aldebaran Fizz locations    : 1
   (Suggestion for pop-up info). This brings us to a whole new can of worms,
   a graphical interface...Xwindows/sunview, this would be a nice option,
   but difficult to provide for all platforms)

   Trade routes             : 1 1 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 4	2.73
   X-Boat routes            : 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 3 4 5 7 8	3.17
   Jump lanes               : 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 5 5	2.80
   Military/Scout Bases     : 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 10	2.09
   Government Type          : 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 10 10	3.27
   Law level                : 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 3 5 10	2.73
   Tech level               : 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 5 10	2.64
   Imperial Sancuaries, etc : 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 3 3 6 10	3.00

   Library Information
   -------------------
(For those of you who voted *no* to "Should we include stuff from other
game systems, all of the non-Traveller/WBH info listed in these sections
came from those other gaming systems..(also we have charts to gernerate
much of this optional info...))
   Number of different *native* lifeforms :1 2 2.5 3 5 5 5 6 7 7 10	4.86
   Xenophobic reaction of population      :1 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 7 7 10	5.00
   Major industries                       :1 2 2 2.5 3 3 3 5 5 6 8	3.68
   Major Corporations                     :1 2 2.5 3 5 5 5 6 6 8 9	4.77
   Exports                                :1 1 2 2 2.5 3 3 4 5 5 5	3.05
   Imports                                :1 1 2 2 2.5 3 3 4 5 5 5	3.05
   Trade duties and taxes                 :1 2 2 3 4 5 5 5 5 7 8	4.27
   Restricted goods                       :1 2 2 2 2 3 3 5 5 5 8	3.45
   Population density                     :1 2 2 2 3 4 4 5 5 5 8	3.73
      (just because it's planet size A and
       population 4 doesn't mean it's not
       crowded).

   Government/Population Information
   ---------------------------------
   Bureaucracy level     :	1 2.5 3 3 3 4 5 5 5 6	3.75
   (how much the government likes to hassle you)
   Loyalty of population :	1 2.5 3 4 4 4 5 5 5 5	3.85
   (to government)
   Crime rate            :	1 3 3 3 4 4 4 5 5 7	3.90
   Punishment level      :	1 2.5 3 4 4 5 5 5 5 6	4.05
   (do they execute you? for jay-walking?)
   Military Status       :	1 2 2 2 2 4 5 5 5 7	3.50
   (at war, pacifistic, etc)
   Repression Index      :	1 2.5 3 3 4 4 5 5 5 6	3.85
   (censorship, unjustified arrests, etc)
   Corruption Index      :     	1 2 2.5 3 4 4 5 5 5 6	3.75
   (corruption of government)
   Government Stability  :     	1 1 3 3 4 4 4 5 5 5	3.50
   (is the same government likely to be in
   power as when we first arrived)
   Average Income        :	1 2 2.5 5 5 5 5 7 8 9	4.95
   (Suggestion to include deviation eg. with a average of Cr2500 per year
   99% of the population still could make only Cr200, perhaps this should be
   median?)
   Current Political/Important Persons: 2.5 4 5 5 6 8 8 9 10	6.39
   Bars, Well-known information centres : 1
   Comments section

   Other Information
   -----------------
   Background radiation level : 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 5 6	3.11
   Meteor Infall              : 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 4 5	3.00
   Solar Energy wavelength curve
   Notable minerals in air or water
   Probability of Ancient habitat


First Build Considerations
- --------------------------

These are general items/capabilities that we may want to consider for the
first (primitive) build of our generation system. Please feel free to add
items at your descretion. If you feel an item should be left for a later
build, please indicate with "LATER". Also, feel free to elaborate on any
item you believe needs more attention.

   System Considerations
   ----------------------------
   Should the first build be one program generating strict (only
   information currently in Traveller/MT/World Builder) systems (This
   would be the frame around which everything else is built)?
Yes:	8	No:	1

   Should we generate our system from scratch or should we use the
   "real" system generator or James Perkins' system generator as a
   *framework* around which to build our system (This means re-writing
   some of the code in those systems to conform to our deign)?
(An interesting note here...james voted in favour of a scratch start)
(one person's note was to use the parts/subroutines in JP's program, or
the Real program as a basis, ie. scratch, using some old stuff.)
Yes:	3
   Real:	0
   Real/3D: 	1
   James P:	1
Yes/Scratch: 5

   If we use either of these systems, should their capabilities by
   included in build 1 or in subsequent builds?
Build 1:	5	Subsequent:	0

   Should the first build be one program unto itself, or should we
   begin with our 'series of program' from the start?
One:	3	Series:	5
   
   How much control over the random generation do we want the user to
   have (UPP(system) level, stellar level, planet level, or more)?
(One person suggested using a constant seed on a pseudo-random number
gerator as data, the problem would be, keeping the order constant ie. if
I generated the solomani rim first, and someone else did the spinward m.
there would be no consistancy, and if we did it in a pre-determined order,
you might wait a while for the data on world 10000.)

Little:	3
Some:	2
Much:	5
 Editing:	2
 Interactive:	2

   Compatibility Considerations
   ----------------------------
   Please indicate if you feel that we should seperate output for each
   "compatibility level", exclusively target one system, or whatever.

(No also include those who don't care if the output is compatable at this level)
   Traveller Compatible:
Yes:	9	No:	1
   MegaTraveller Compatible:
Yes:	10	No:	0
   World Builders Handbook Compatible:
Yes:	8	No:	2
   Other generation system(s):
Yes:	5	No:	5

- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Nov 89 13:53:05 PST
From: hplabs!joshua@atherton.com (Flame Bait)
Subject: Table handling routines
To: morrison@gatech

[I think people on the Traveller Generation list might find this 
interesting, maybe even useful...]

I'm  working on a set of C subroutines to use and manipulate tables, 
such as are commonly used in FRP and computer games.  I'm posting 
this message for two reasons.  I'd like some beta testers, and I'd like 
some feed back on the features I'm providing, to make sure I'm writing  
something that others will find useful.

Here is the design, please give me any feed back you have:

There will be one public data type (table_t) and a small number of 
function calls:

tb_read:    Read a file containing a table into the program.  These 
	    tables will have a simple format, which will be easy for 
	    a person to create and modify.

tb_tbl:     Prints out the table in troff/tbl format.  Mostly for 
	    debugging.

tb_use:     Makes a dice roll on a table, returning a character string 
            result.

tb_dump*:   Dumps a table in a human unreadable format.

tb_load*:   Loads a previously dumped table.

tb_choose*: Given a number, returns what rolling a number the table 
            would have given you.  (tb_use uses random numbers.)

tb_query*:  Returns information about the table.  Possible queries
            include, a tables name, the sort of dice rolled on it,
            (for multi tables, the list of column names, etc.)
               

Functions marked with a '*' have not yet been implemented; please tell 
me if you think they should be.

Inside the implementation there will be several types of tables, 
although this will be hidden from users.  Each table includes a name, 
the dice roll (ie "1d100", "2d4+1", etc.), the source (p24 of Greyhawk, 
for example), and the information on mapping dice roles to results.

So far I have three types of tables, simple, multi, and change:

Simple tables look like this:
(roll 2d4)
2   first-result
2-6 second-result
7-8 third-result

Multiple tables look like this:

(roll 1d4)
roll   elf dwarf human
1       1    1     0
2       3    3     0 
3-4     4    7     1

And change tables look like this:

(roll 1d8)
light normal heavy   result
 1-4    1-2    1        1
 5-8    3-6    2        2
  -     7-8   3-8       3

Specific questions:

1. New table types?
    a. What other types of tables would you add?

2. New function calls?
    a. Which of the functions marked with a '*' do you want the most?
    b. Which of the functions marked with a '*' do you want the least?
    c. If you want tb_load/tb_dump, please say why.  Is it to load 
       tables as quickly as possible, or to have tables which can not 
       be read by users of the system, or both.  Should this dump format 
       be machine dependent, or does it not matter?
    d. What queries would you support in the query function call?

3. Scripting and Debugging?
    What sort of debugging would you want?

4. Right now, adding a new table type requires a relink, so it can not
   be done "on the fly".  Is this a big problem?  A small one?

5. Right now random numbers are generated with srand/rand.  Should this
   be changeable at run time?  What about at compile time?

(Order all of your suggested improvements, most important first.)

Now about beta testing this stuff:  

The three tables types and three function calls will be ready to beta 
test in two weeks or less.  If you want to be a beta tester, please 
email me.  Besides email address and phone number, please include the 
type of program you will use these routines for. (ie. random monster 
encounter table for AD&D, or Planet generation for Traveller, or 
whatever)  If you use these routines for beta test, I'll expect a copy 
of the program you create, so I can start a regression test suite.  
(This has the nice side effect of you knowing that future releases will 
always support your programs, since they will be used for testing.)  I 
hope to have 5 or 10 beta testers.

For non beta testers who want this stuff:

Just hang out.  In a month or two I'll post how to get copies of version 
1.0 to the same newsgroups that I posted this email.

Joshua Levy
- --------        Quote: "The secret of success is sincerity.  Once you
Addresses:              can fake that you've got it made."
joshua@atherton.com          
{decwrl|sun|hpda}!athertn!joshua    
work:(408)734-9822    home:(415)968-3718

- ------------------------------

End of Traveller System Generation Group Digest
******************************



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