
-------- TML Message #1841 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1841
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 90 00:18:28 PST
From: John Wilber <wilber%aludra.usc.edu@usc.edu>
Subject: TDR Ideas

I've been reading quit a bit about TDR on the TML here.  I'm all in
favor of it, and I'd like to submit a few ideas of my own.
 
 
TDR FORMAT:
 
First, I like the idea that it will be distributed in ASCII.  This will
allow anybody with a computer to be able to format the text as they
desire.  This will also make it easy for someone to modify the rules,
and still have them neatly printed and bound, if desired.
 
 
WEAPON MAINTENANCE:
 
Several people have also been discussing the extent of the maintenance
a player can perform on a weapon with only skill in that weapon.  With
today's weapons, a soldier can fix a problem with his weapon 90-95% of
the time.  This would include replacement of most parts.  The rest of
the time he turns it over to the unit armorer, who should be able to
fix the problem in less than an hour, given the right tools and parts.
I would imagine that a few special wrenches might be needed once in
awhile, but other than that, most of the tools needed would be
available in any hardware store.  I realize that I'm talking about
weapons that rely on exploding gasses here, but I think a lot of this
would apply to energy weapons, too, or else armorers in units with
man-portable energy weapons would be overloaded with things to do.  A
good guideline for weapon-skill-only maintenance might be this: If it
needs something more complicated than a screwdriver, see the armorer.
For energy weapons, a simple multimeter might also be allowed for WSO
repairs.  Also keep in mind that as the TL of the weapons increases,
the average education of the man using them will tend to increase too.
 
Here might be a sample from FM 328-9401, "Maintenance for the M89
Fusion Gun, Man-Portable"  [The FGMP-15 to us].
 
Symptom: Excessive Recoil       [Remember that the FGMP-15 has a
                                 grav-compensated recoil absorbtion
                                 system]
 
Problem: Bad recoil compensation grav units.  Check resistance across
each recoil compensating grav unit.  If resistance across any of them
is less than 1000 ohms or greater than 5000 ohms, the unit is probably
shorted or burned out.  Replace the unit, and turn the defective one
into your armorer. [Only an ohmmeter and possibly a screwdriver is needed.]
 
Problem: Excessive power is sent to fusion chamber magnets.  Check
magnet power distribution module...... [you get the idea]
 
Anyone who knows the principles of operation behind a weapon should be
able to fix most problems.
 
 
MANEUVER DRIVES
 
I like the idea of reactionless drives, which probably implies
anti-gravity technology in one form or another.  With reaction drives,
the fuel requirements are so immense, and the endurance of the vessels
using them so short, in-system travel becomes difficult without using
jump drives.  I don't think this is any fun.  I think space travel in
traveller should be about as difficult as air travel today.  Besides, I
like the idea of a solid state drive.  I think there's a certain
elegance about a large ship slowly and silently lifting away from its
landing pad.
 
The system that _Striker_ used for grav vehicles seems quite workable,
and this could be easily extended to spacecraft.  Each grav module can
provide a maximum of n kilograms of thrust, and the designer adds
modules until the desired performance is reached.
 
When I used to referee, I told my players that each module generates a
virtual gravitional field, or VGF, and that on-board avionics can
control the module to put the VGF anywhere in relation to the module.
This would translate the pilot's commands to actual ship movements.
The VGFs would only act upon the modules themselves.  This would allow
different modules to have forces acting on them in different
directions, possibly producing a net torque on the spacecraft.  This
would eliminate the klugey solution of having a large gyroscope in the
middle of the craft.  See the diagram below.
 
 
      * - VGF            *
                        +------------+
                       <     Ship    |
                        +------------+
                                   *
 
In this diagram, the ship would rotate clockwise.  The 6G limitation
could be imposed by saying that grav modules can only be made so thin,
and power-supply frequencies have to be increased as the amount of
"thrust" is increased.  To eliminate large phase differences between
different parts of a grav array (array = bunch of modules) the modules
have to be made thinner and thinner as wavelengths decrease.  At 6G's,
they can't be made any thinner.  Agility can be described as using
extra energy to produce additional VGFs which would move the craft up,
down, or sideways while the biggest VGF would be moving the craft
sideways.
 
 
VEHICLE DESIGN
 
I think that TDR should have a vehicle design system that would apply
across the whole range of vehicle sizes- kind of like a "unified field
theory" of vehicle design.  Again, I think _Striker_ has the right
idea.  I like Striker's system because you know that the resultant
vehicle is x meters wide, y meters tall, and z meters long, unlike
MegaTraveller.  The designer would use the same rules for designing any
kind of vehicle, whether it was a motorcycle, grav tank, submarine, 100
ton merchant ship, or 100k ton dreadnaught.  In some circumstances, one
might pick the dimensions of the vehicle, and be given a formula for
picking armor, and determining the usable volume, like for aircraft.
 
Some examples of vehicles that I would hope to be able to apply such a
design system to:
 
Motorcycles
Passenger Cars
Civilian/Military Trucks
Aircraft (All types)
Water-borne vessels
Hovercraft
Grav Vehicles
Spaceplances
Spacecraft
Starships
 
COMBAT SYSTEM
 
I like the Azhanti High Lightning/Striker system of combat where
separate rolls to hit and penetrate are needed.  If a hit location
chart (arms/legs/torso/head) is added, the problem of taking cover is
resolved- if the part of the body hit is under cover, then figure in
the armor value of the cover when rolling the penetration.  This also
makes it easy to adjust for different ammo types in certain weapons
(like the ACR).
 
 
CHARACTER GENERATION
 
I like the character generation system as it now stands, but how about
adding a few new occupations in additions to Scouts, Marines, etc?
Suggestions: Police, Lawyer (useless in some campaigns, great for
others), Techie (a catch-all for electrical engineer/auto
mechanic/telephone repairman/computer programmer types).
 
 
I'm interested in seeing what other have thought up for TDR, but
haven't seen any submissions yet.

John J. Wilber
wilber@nunki.usc.edu

"You're never too close to a vacc suit"


-------- TML Message #1842 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1842
Subject: Re:(1836) Open question for TML 
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 90 14:50:25 PST
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@metolius.WR>


> My question to the TML, (considering the problems from my last
> massive posting of Scott's stuff), is does anyone mind/object?

The "Official" policy is that if 10% of the TML verbally/electronically
expresses a desire to see it, you can post it.  If there is significant
protest (equal or greater numbers), an alternate form of delivery needs
to be set up.  I think you are wise to test the waters before sending a
slew of designs out.

I will remind the TML that Vehicle designs are now automagically moved
to the end of every TML digest, so that people no longer need to wade
through them to find "conversational" messages.

James
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Traveller Mailing List Administrator	     James T Perkins @ Tektronix, Inc
traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com	     Beaverton, Oregon, USA
uunet!metolius.wr.tek.com!traveller-request  "Load Auto/Evade, Beowulf!"

-------- TML Message #1843 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1843
From: jpb <jpb@umbio.med.miami.edu>
Subject: Trillion Credit Squadron
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 90 18:20:53 EDT


I am getting ready to run a Trillion Credit Squadron campaign (I want to
generate my campaign political history) and have a few questions.

First, how are you doing tech level increases?  How much should I charge to
increase a planet's TL?  This is never covered in the rules,  (At my players
and I haven't seen it) but is necessary.

Second, how about Colonization?  How do you keep a planet docile after you've
invaded it?  How badly does bombardment mess up GNP?

If noone has worked this out already, I'll post what my group works out.
If someone has this kind of thing typed in, I'd appreciate a copy.

Thanks,

Joe Block (jpb@umbio.med.miami.edu)

-------- TML Message #1844 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1844
Subject: Re: John Wilber's post
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 90 00:13:34 EST
From: Robert P Poole <tarquin@athena.mit.edu>

[I munged the Subject line to be more meaningful -- James]

>I like the character generation system as it now stands, but how about
>adding a few new occupations in additions to Scouts, Marines, etc?
>Suggestions: Police,
	   What do you think a "Law Enforcer" is?
>Lawyer (useless in some campaigns, great for
	   I think this falls under "Bureaucrat"
>others), Techie (a catch-all for electrical engineer/auto
>mechanic/telephone repairman/computer programmer types).
	   Anyone with Jack-O-T or sufficient mechanical acumen would fall in this
area.  Class Scientist, any military tech, etc.  It might be useful to have a
character class called Engineer which specializes in technical skills, but I am
not convinced this will add much to the game.

Robert P. Poole                       tarquin@athena.mit.edu
46 Massachusetts Avenue               MIT Course VIII
311B Bexley Hall                      "We make Idols of our concepts, but
Cambridge, MA  02139                   wisdom is born of wonder."
                                         -- St. Gregory the Illuminator

-------- TML Message #1845 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1845
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 90 10:26 EDT
From: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Subject: Fusion Power in TDR-- essentially a final decision


At this stage of the game, I'm looking at the proton-proton chain for
Traveller fusion designs and have almost (but not quite) decided that TDR will
officially adopt proton-proton reactions and leave it at that. The reasons are
entirely founded on game mechanics: neutrino sensors wouldn't be as useful as
slow neutron sensors if the plants used D+D or D+T; refueling from gas giants
becomes ridiculous or impossible unless we assume the plant can burn straight
protium; the TL sliding scale for plant efficiency makes no sense if D+D or
other reactions are considered -- only p-p reactions could be blamed for a
reactor that's so criminally inefficient even at TL 15; military contractors
would gladly sacrifice efficiency for refueling ability (remember the cardinal
rule of ground combat in the 20th BEK-- cut the fuel lines and the tanks can't
go vroom any more. Imagine how interesting a desert war would be if the armor
could burn sandstone or other easily-found-in-the-wilderness junk? 

So unless there are further arguments, TDR will go to Protium-based
proton-proton chains for fusion tech, and assume that "refined fuel" is pure
liquid hydrogen and "unrefined fuel" is liquefied gas giant atmosphere or
water (and since I live two blocks from Dow, I'll beat him to a pulp in person
when he raises the question of water being more efficient storage of hydrogen
than LH2, so the TML won't have to. |-> ) 

metlay


-------- TML Message #1846 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1846
Date:         Mon, 26 Nov 90 09:51:48 EST
From: Nicholas Sylvain <NPSYLV%WMVM1@vtvm2.cc.vt.edu>
Subject:      Lawyer Characters

On Sun, 25 Nov 90 20:32:03 PST you said:
>
>Date: Sun, 25 Nov 90 00:18:28 PST
>From: John Wilber <wilber%aludra.usc.edu@usc.edu>
>Subject: (1841) TDR Ideas
>
>I've been reading quit a bit about TDR on the TML here.  I'm all in
>favor of it, and I'd like to submit a few ideas of my own.
>....
>CHARACTER GENERATION
>
>Suggestions: Police, Lawyer (useless in some campaigns, great for
>others), Techie (a catch-all for electrical engineer/auto
>mechanic/telephone repairman/computer programmer types).

Being a proto-lawyer myself, I thought I'd throw in my two cents here. In my
opinion, a lawyer can be just as useful in a variety of campaign settings as
any other character class.

There is a lot more to being a lawyer than a wealth of legal knowledge (Legal),
although it is important. A lawyer has to deal with a wide variety of people
(Liaison), from professionals (Admin) to the lower strata (Streetwise and
Carousing). Plus, a lawyer has to be able to get information out of people and
piece things together (Interview/Interrogation). Being able to sift through
huge amounts of information and do effective research may require a certain
facility with computers. Further, various areas of the law may indicate
specialized knowledge: corporate/commercial lawyers would tend to have economic
skills, while lawyers in technical fields (ex. patent law) would have some
expertise in engineering or something similar. You get the idea.

So, even if the campaign won't directly involve legal matters, a good lawyer
should be able to serve effectively in other roles. I'm more or less testing
that proposition in the PBEM game...

FYI, a past issue of Challenge had an extended version of the Law Enforcement
character (like the Police you mentioned.) Sorry, can't remember which one, but
it wasn't a recent issue. I may be roused to do an extended lawyer generation
system for TDR, or is there any other law-type out in TML-land?

On an unrelated subject, let me say that I like vehicle designs on the TML. I
have archived them and squirreled them away on floppy for a future reference.ay
After all, why reinvent the wheel? I don't mind occasional large groups of
designs (like from Robert Dean) but I DO mind a daily flow of HUGE chunks of
designs that goes on and on for many days, like from Scott Kellogg. I would
MUCH prefer smaller, more spread out chunks. Thems my $.02 worth.

Nicholas Sylvain

"If you want to play the game, you better know the rules, love."
                            -- Inspector Harry Callahan (_The Dead Pool_)

-------- TML Message #1847 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1847
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 90 11:03 EDT
From: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Subject: TDR and publishing: copy of a letter to George Herbert


I just mailed this to George W. Herbert. I thought the rest of the TML
Should see it too.

metlay

- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------

George:

I've been out of town. A public reply is forthcoming, but in private,
I may as well let you know the following: I will not allow this stuff
to be sold. Period. Copyright will be covered by a generic Berne-convention
disclaimer stating that rules are copyright 1990 the listed authors and
are used by permission, so you'll retain copyright on what you write.
I'm sorry if you regard the public-domain aspect of this as being a waste
of your time and effort, but that's the way it stands: I won't drag money
into this equation-- it creates far too many problems for the projected
return. I've run successful and unsuccessful businesses before, and I cn
smell a money-loser a mile away at this point; and TDR is a money-loser.
It'll be done and distributed for free, or it won't be done.

Thanks for your patience, and I hope you'll see fit to contribute in your
spare time anyway.

metlay

-------- TML Message #1848 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1848
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.COM>
Subject: TML Survey: Final Reminder
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 90 8:38:38 PST

For those of you who have yet to turn in a TML Survey but plan to, the
deadline is Midnight (Pacific Time) Friday, November 30th.  All surveys
not already in the E-mail in-basket at markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.com (see .sig
for alternate address) by 12:00 AM will not be accepted.  Remember, there's
a free RPG drawing riding on this, so get those surveys in!  If you don't
remember whether you sent in a survey, or you sent one but don't know
whether we got in, here's a list of the all the survey respondees we've
heard from so far (in the order they were received):

   1. Andrew M. Salamon   17. Burton Choinski     33. Karl-Koenig Koenigsson
   2. Brent L. Woods      18. Ted Kim             34. Brad Post
   3. Jan L. Peterson     19. Arturo Perez        35. Simon Anderson
   4. Tony L. Hayes       20. Joshua Levy         36. Derek MacColl
   5. J. David Nilles     21. Paul Baughman       37. James Glanville
   6. Paul Timothy Dale   22. Carl Rigney         38. Martin V Howard
   7. Iain Fogg           23. Adrian Hurt         39. Arthur Green
   8. Eric Halil          24. James Nelson        40. Mark F. Cook
   9. Peter L. Berghold   25. Robert S. Dean      41. Rob Miracle
  10. J. Robert Suckling  26. Michael P. Metlay   42. Steven B. Fellows
  11. Jim Baranski        27. Andy Coombes        43. Mark Leymaster
  12. Dan Corrin          28. Matthew Harelick    44. Nicholas P. Sylvain
  13. Bertil Jonell       29. Eric M. Sergienko   45. Wilson Mac Liaw
  14. Jim Cheetham        30. Robert Poole        46. John J. Wilber
  15. Bob Mahoney         31. Richard Johnson     47. Bayliss McLeod
  16. James T. Perkins    32. Ron Abramson        48. Gary Schreiber

If your name isn't on the list, we don't have a survey from you.  Our
thanks again to all those who have responded.

Later,

        Mark F. Cook

USMail: User Interface Technical Support
        Hewlett-Packard - Interface Technology Operation
        1000 NE Circle Blvd.  Corvallis, OR 97330

INTERNET: markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
          markc%hpcvss.cv.hp.com@relay.hp.com

[You can't win if you don't enter! If you are new to the list or have
lost your copy of the survey, and want to send one in before the
deadline, I'd be happy to forward one to you -- James]

-------- TML Message #1849 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1849
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 90 11:38:39 EST
From: Dan Corrin <dan@engrg.uwo.ca>
Subject: Re: Trillion Credit Squadron (Tech Level Advancement)

> Date: Sun, 25 Nov 90 18:20:53 EDT
> From: jpb <jpb@umbio.med.miami.edu> (Joe Block)
> Subject: (1843) Trillion Credit Squadron
> 
> 
> I am getting ready to run a Trillion Credit Squadron campaign (I want to
> generate my campaign political history) and have a few questions.
> 
> First, how are you doing tech level increases?  How much should I charge to
> increase a planet's TL?  This is never covered in the rules,  (At my players
> and I haven't seen it) but is necessary.

We never generated any rules (because we never got the TCS game going),
however the tech levels were to be broken down into sub-categories as
mentioned in the World builders handbook. This also implies which
categories depend on others, eg: most depend on the power Tech Level.
We had decided to make the improvment of a category a multi-part
research project (reserch projects as described in the referee's companion).
The players would buy research groups (actually fund them), who would then
try to complete the stages to improve the tech levels of each category.

This is fine in isolation but there are two other complications to consider
1) Influence of higher tech worlds. (Research should be a lot easier if
you can just take a trip to your higher tech ally, and get copies of their
research papers, working examples, etc).

2) Population inertia. Just because the world develops a new tech level
doesn't mean that the population will use it and move the world to the
new tech level. Take a look at the Vilani culture as described in the
Vargr and Vilani supplement from DGP. We come from a culture that seems
to embrace technological advances, not all will, especially if technology
caused the culture some pain. (eg: many post-nuclear war stories have
people rejecting technology in case history repeats itself).


					-Dan Corrin.

-------- TML Message #1850 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1850
From: CHOINSKI@s35.prime.COM
Subject: Re: (1841) TDR Ideas
Date: 26 Nov 90 12:20:16 EST

>From: John Wilber <wilber%aludra.usc.edu@usc.edu>
>MANEUVER DRIVES
>
>In this diagram, the ship would rotate clockwise.  The 6G limitation
>could be imposed by saying that grav modules can only be made so thin,
>and power-supply frequencies have to be increased as the amount of
>"thrust" is increased.  To eliminate large phase differences between
>different parts of a grav array (array = bunch of modules) the modules
>have to be made thinner and thinner as wavelengths decrease.  At 6G's,
>they can't be made any thinner.  Agility can be described as using
>extra energy to produce additional VGFs which would move the craft up,
>down, or sideways while the biggest VGF would be moving the craft
>sideways.

While the Jump-6 limitation is reasonable, why stay with the 6G limit?
Just make it MUCH more costly (in power terms) to hit those high gees.

Does the use of some sort of power function for grav power sound more
correct?  Thus

       Power = (constant) * ((grav * mass)^(scale))

Scale of efficiency and the power constant decrease with increasing TL,
making high G's feasable at higher TL's.  The actual volume/mass of the grav
array might decrease a bit with higher TL's, but the biggest gain from the
higher tech is decreased power requirements.

Worlds that have better High-Common TL then air-travel TL might have a
decreased scale value, while the reverse would apply to the constant value.
In addition, the use of wings in an atmosphere would reduce the constant value
to a small degree.

>VEHICLE DESIGN
>
>I think that TDR should have a vehicle design system that would apply
>across the whole range of vehicle sizes- kind of like a "unified field
>theory" of vehicle design.  Again, I think _Striker_ has the right
>idea.  I like Striker's system because you know that the resultant
>vehicle is x meters wide, y meters tall, and z meters long, unlike
>MegaTraveller.  The designer would use the same rules for designing any

I feel that unifying this much is too much of a good thing.  A car is not
a boat, nor is a sub a spaceship.  There should probably be three sets of
design rules, based on a common core:

   Ground vehicles: Cars, trucks, etc.  No grav stuff, but includes hovercraft.
   Watercraft:      Boats, subs, etc.
   Aircraft:        Grav craft, spacecraft, etc.

I think it should be broken up a bit just because of the differences in design
philosophy.  If you wish to make an aero-car, you would use the basic aircraft
rules and add vehicle stuff.  A sub-plane would use either the aircraft or
watercraft rules, depending on primary emphasis.

>COMBAT SYSTEM
>
>I like the Azhanti High Lightning/Striker system of combat where
>separate rolls to hit and penetrate are needed.  If a hit location
>chart (arms/legs/torso/head) is added, the problem of taking cover is
>resolved- if the part of the body hit is under cover, then figure in
>the armor value of the cover when rolling the penetration.  This also
>makes it easy to adjust for different ammo types in certain weapons
>(like the ACR).

IMHO, the "overall body damage" system is outdated and should be
eliminated.  Also, the direct use of characteristics for "hitpoints"
should be dropped in favor of a more abstract system (perhaps similar to
"STAR WARS").  Each character is given a "toughness" rating (based on Strength,
Endurance, and some racial modifiers -- kkee should be tougher then humans).
When a character's armor is breached, the "degree of damage (DOD)" is determined.
If an optional hit location table is used, head hits might be DODx10, arms
DODx1/2, etc.  By cross referencing the DOD with teh toughness, you can
determine wounding (superficial, light, moderate, serious, critical, lethal).

This system would retain enough of the old system, but add some "space
opera-ish" taste.

- - -============================================================================-
 Burton Choinski                                       choinski@s35.prime.com
   Prime Computer, Inc.                                  (508) 620-2800 x3233
   Framingham, Ma.  01701
 Disclaimer:  Down! Down! Down! Out! Out! Out! Mine! Mine! Mine!
- - -============================================================================-

[I added a subject line and edited the attribution -- James]

-------- TML Message #1851 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1851
From: CHOINSKI@s35.prime.COM
Subject: Re: (1841) TDR Ideas, Addendum
Date: 26 Nov 90 13:23:36 EST

>From: John Wilber <wilber%aludra.usc.edu@usc.edu>
>MANEUVER DRIVES

A though just hit me (*clonk* :).  If TDR deems that grav drives are
reasonable (probably at high TL's if my power function idea is used),
actual thrust sould be primarily along the axis of the ship, with limited
thrust on the sides.

Generally: sides =1-6,    1  ^
                         6 2 |
                         5 3 forward
                          4

Assume: rear = full power, front = 2/3 power, rear flank = 1/2 power,
        front flank = 1/3 power.  Round down (space combat)

(gravatic drive is at center of gravity, aligned along the axis).

Rear Thrust  Front  Front Flank  Rear Flank
    1g         0g       0g          0g
    2g         1g       0g          1g
    3g         2g       1g          1g
    4g         2g       1g          2g
    5g         3g       1g          2g
    6g         4g       2g          3g

A ship designed with a 4g max rear thrust may apply up to 2g forward as
breaking thrust.  If the captain wants more, he will have to turn around.
In addition, the ship may face the enemy and still retreat, if the
armor in the fron is heavier.

VECTOR MOVEMENT

The last bout of vector combat I played with was MAYDAY, many years ago.
I don't know how MT does it, but how about this.

Forward vector: Current vector with respect to the ship's axis.  positive
indicates forward, negative indicates backward.

Slip vector: Thrust added by rear flank thrusters produces a slip vector,
either Left or Right.  These vectors are added to the forward vector.

Drag vector: used to counteract slip vectors.  Right drag will cancel
right slip on a 1-1 basis.

Reverse vector:  Using forward thrust to counteract forward vectors.

When ships rotate, the vectors change names:

           Forward   Left-Slip    Right-Slip
Left Turn   R-Slip   Forward       Left Drag
Right Turn  L-Slip   Right Drag     forward
 _   _   _   _   _   _   _   _   _   _   _   _   _   _   _ 
/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \
\_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/*\_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/
/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/*\_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \
\_/F\_/ \_/ \_/ \_/F\_/ \_/ \_/ \_/*\_/*\_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/
/ \_/*\_/"A"/ \_/*\_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/*\_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \
\_/ \_/*\_/ \_/*\_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/*\_/ \_/F\_/ \_/ \_/ \_/
/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/*\_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \
\_/ \_/*\_/ \_/ \_/*\_/"B"/ \_/ \_/*\_/"C"/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/
/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/*\_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \
\_/ \_/*\_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/*\_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/
/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/*\_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \
\_/ \_/*\_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/*\_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/
/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/S\_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \
\_/ \_/S\_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/S\_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/
/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \

Course "A" has these vectors: F4, L2
Course "B" has these vectors: F2, L3, R2
Course "C" has these vectors: F6, L-4    (drag left 4)

the *'s indicate the plotting path.  S is starting point, F is ending point.
As you can see, large drag and slip vectors can be simplified to
forward vectors with small slips or drags.

Thus, drag converts to slip at the cost of forward vector and reversal
of dirction.  (as shown on path "C")
Equal left and right slips cancel, to produce one forward vector, per
canceling, with the excess becoming the actual slip.

- - -============================================================================-
 Burton Choinski                                       choinski@s35.prime.com
   Prime Computer, Inc.                                  (508) 620-2800 x3233
   Framingham, Ma.  01701
 Disclaimer:  Down! Down! Down! Out! Out! Out! Mine! Mine! Mine!
- - -============================================================================-

[I deleted some rows of empty hexes for brevity, and edited the subject
line and attribution text.  Someone let me know if my editing gets out
of hand -- James]

-------- TML Message #1852 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1852
Subject: PBEM Admin
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 90 8:26:43 PST
From: Richard Johnson <richard@agora.UUCP>

Here it is monday and the turn is STILL not done...

It was a stormy week.  Mike's wife went to Antarctica, I had to
lay off my whole dpartment, Thursday was Thanksgiving here in the
States, and today is Kerry's birthday.   Whew!

I have all that (public) mail pared down to about 200K or so...

Many folks are on, or will soon be on, vacation or business trips.

So this week is ADMIN-ONLY week!  NO PBEM turns!  NO PBEM privates!
I might actually have to back you guys up just a little anyway, 'cause
you got ahead of me with charging the grid and loading the program.

Without further ado...

For the time being, if you have Eric Sergienko on any distribution
lists -- TAKE HIM OFF *NOW*.  We don't want to get him in trouble with
his command (he's in the U.S. Navy) and have him involuntarily subjected
to warmer climates.

Make sure you have the right address for Simon Anderson --
cse426@cck.coventry.ac.uk one or more of you still has his old address.

[or shorten it slightly to cse426@cck.cov.ac.uk; works for the TML --
James]

For some reason, I still bounce mail I send to Ireland, and to UC Davis
(forgive for forgetting your names early on Monday morning).  I can
hear you just fine - keep playing.

The R-alpha team seems just about ready for you guys, so it's time
to wake up your Aslan characters.  I still don't know who's going to arrive
first, or why - film at eleven.

Richard

-------- TML Message #1853 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1853
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.COM>
Subject: TDR: Jump on the Bandwagon!!
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 90 13:45:32 PST

Metlay and I are still scrambling to get development of TDR moving
and we need the help of all those people interested in contributing.

If you want to work on a section (or several sections) of TDR, or
you are already in the process of developing some material, would
you please send a letter to me at:

                    markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
                            -or-
                    markc%hpcvss.cv.hp.com@relay.hp.com

Please let me know what you're working on (or what you'd LIKE to
work on), who you're already working with (if anyone), and if you'd
be willing to act as a 'coordinator' for one of the groups you have
interest in.  Currently, proposed TDR working catagories are:
        1) Character Generation  7) Task Rules
        2) Character Classes     8) Trade & Commerce
        3) Character Skills      9) Vehicle Design
        4) Combat               10) Vehicle Lists (based on #9)
        5) Medical              11) Weapons (based on #3 and #4)
        6) Physics
We are also open to proposals for other working catagories.  Submission
guidelines were posted to the TML Digest Vol.12, Issue 5 (Nov. 19), in
Subject 1821.  If you'd like a copy of these guidelines, send an E-mail
request to the above address(es).

[errr... that digest number is for the NIGHTLY digest, which has its own
volume and issue number, and does not match the BIWEEKLY digest's volume
and issue numbers, except by conicidence.  The BIWEEKLY with message
1821 was Vol.  12 issue 6, and was sent on Nov 20 -- James]

There are a lot of GOOD ideas flying back and forth on the TML about
different components of TDR, but unfortunately, they are not being
coalesced into a solid set of rules that way.  We want people who
have ideas to contribute for TDR components to have a responsible
individual for each section, so that they can capture inovations
which might otherwise get lost in the 'background noise'.

Once you've all notified us of your interest, we'll announce the
catagory coordinators to the TML.  From then on, individual con-
tributors can, well, 'coordinate' their work through the appropriate
coordinator.

I know that some of you have already talked to me about TDR.  A lot
more of you have talke to Metlay about the same thing.  Please don't
assume that we will put your names on one list or another based on
those previous conversations.  We may have forgotten, or lost you
in the shuffle, and we don't want to lose any potential contributors.

[ Confidental to Iain Fogg: Iain, disregard this request.  We already
  know about you. :-) -mfc ]

Hopefully, most of the TML readers that are interested will have signed
in by the middle of December.  This means that coordinators for each
of the sections should be announced via the TML before Christmas.

We want to focus all of this energy being expended over the TML into
descreet subject groups so we won't lose any of the good material that's
already been generated.  Let us hear from you if you want a stake in
TDR's future!

        - Mark F. Cook (TDR Archivist)

INTERNET: markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
          markc%hpcvss.cv.hp.com@relay.hp.com

-------- TML Message #1854 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1854
From: Edwin Wiles <elw@netx.COM>
Subject: Re: (1782) Re: Black Globes
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 90 18:51:06 EST

Adrian Hurt said:
> I don't see the danger.  If the ship has absorbed enough energy to make the
> jump, it absorbed the energy into the jump capacitors.  If it still exists,
> it hasn't overloaded the capacitors.

The implication was not that you would overload due to the jump, but that
the incomming energy might overload the capacitors regardless of your desires.
Depends on how the globe is wired into the capacitors.

[If this has already been beaten to death, forgive me.
    I'm trying to get caught up. - elw]

- - -- 
					    Edwin Wiles, x2317, Office 4081

-------- TML Message #1855 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1855
From: Edwin Wiles <elw@netx.COM>
Subject: Re: (1785) The Drives Revision: my position summary...
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 90 18:58:31 EST

George William Herbert said [edited]:
> .... Subpoint of this would be a 'flavor-of-game' alteration,
> because heavily armoured naval ships would end up with 1-G or less and most
> player ships will be able to RUN AWAY 8-) ...

This is the normal case now.  Major heavy military ships simply cannot
outrun most civilian ships.  This is why you have smaller, lighter armored,
military ships for chasing down civilian ships!  Note that this is not true
of bulk cargo ships that are fully loaded.  It is only true of "speedsters",
smuggler's craft (which are far more powerful than they *appear* to be), and
*empty* bulk cargo ships.  Or so has been my (limited) experience....

- - -- 
Preferred: elw@netx.com			Edwin Wiles, NetExpress Inc., Vienna, VA
Alternate: ...!grebyn!netex!elw

-------- TML Message #1856 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1856
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapon (and other) recoil
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 90 13:33:14 GMT

I apologise for the delay.  I have finally located my source of Traveller
military knowledge: Book 4, Mercenary.

Mark F. Cook <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.COM> writes:
> In TML Subject 1761, Bertil Jonell (d9bertil@tek.chalmers.se> writes:
> >   The gaussrifle fires a small 4mm calibre bullet. This bullet travels at
> > 1000m/s which is about as fast as an normal 5.56 NATO round. And yet, the
> > gaussrifle inflict 4D with a penetration of 7, while a 5.56 NATO in Traveller
> > would inflict 3D at around 3 or 4 in penetration.
> >   This would indicate that the bullet from a gaussrifle travels much faster
> > than a normal rifle bullet, maybe somewhere in the range of 1500 to 2000 m/s.
> 
> In fact, the Imperial Encyclopedia does list the velocity as 1500 m/s.

And so does Mercenary.  Incredible as it may seem, GDW have actually kept
something consistent! :-)

> >   How this weapon can be thought as being particularly recoilless is beyond
> > me:)
> 
> MT does NOT list gauss weapons as being "recoilless".  They list them as
> being "low recoil", which is appropriate.  If you consider both F=ma and
> Newton's 3rd Law ("Equal and opposite reaction") then the amount of enery
> delivered to each gauss needle (and thus acceleration, since the needle's
> mass is constant) is equal to the amount of recoil energy delivered to
> the gauss weapon firing the needle.

Time for some number crunching.  First, a correction to the above.  It's
momentum, not energy, that Newton's 3rd law deals with.  Figures for Traveller
assault rifle and gauss rifle come from Book 4; figures for M-16 assault rifle
come from "The Armory" by Kevin Dockery, in brackets in the assault rifle part
for comparison.

	Mass of a fully loaded assault rifle = 3.33 kg	   (3.635 kg)
	Mass of a 6mm slug from assault rifle = 0.005 kg   (0.00365 kg)
	Velocity of slug = 900 m/s			   (999.7 m/s)
=>	Momentum of slug = 4.5 kg m/s			   (3.65 m/s)
By Newton's 3rd law, momentum of rifle = 4.5 kg m/s in the other direction.
=>	Velocity of rifle = 1.35 m/s			   (1.0 m/s)

	Mass of a fully loaded gauss rifle = 3.90 kg
	Mass of a 4mm needle from gauss rifle = 0.004 kg
	Velocity of needle = 1500 m/s
=>	Momentum of slug = 6 kg m/s
=>	Momentum of gauss rifle = 6 kg m/s the other way
=>	Velocity of rifle = 1.54 m/s
=>	A gauss rifle is no more a low recoil weapon than an assault rifle.

The gauss rifle gets its extra penetration from the small calibre plus the
greater impact; it gets its extra damage from the higher kinetic energy.
How it gets a low recoil is beyond me.  Maybe it incorporates a reactionless
drive. :-)

- - -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

-------- TML Message #1857 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1857
From: Edwin Wiles <elw@netx.COM>
Subject: Re: (1800) FTL impossibilities, TDR stuff
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 90 0:58:11 EST

Robert P Poole said basically that FTL travel is impossible.  I will agree,
IF we add the proviso:  "With Our Current Understanding Of Physics!"

So many times in history, someone has said "not possible, the universe
doesn't allow it", it has turned out later that it WAS possible, only
our knowledge was incomplete, or the evidence misunderstood, to give
the impression that the desired ability was impossible.

I'll even admit (reluctantly :-) ) that the percentage chance of FTL
working is MUCH less than 1%, but until we know everything, we cannot
eliminate that last little bit of uncertanty.

Still, Robert has a valid point:

	DON'T GET BOGGED DOWN TRYING TO MAKE EVERYTHING "REAL".

It is sufficient if it is "close", or even as long as it is internally
consistent and not too obviously externally bogus.

Example, FTL is necessary to reduce travel times to something that can be
used within the framework of an RPG game taking place on multiple planets
around different stars.  Yes, it mucks up with our current understanding
of physics, but it is needed, so give it a mild handwave and continue on.

However, a "reactionless" drive is probably NOT necessary.  Having
only "reaction" drives puts a whole series of other problems into
fairly well understood fields.  Allowing higher efficiencies than
are now possible, through some plausible means (such as controlled
fusion), can reduce interplanetary travel times to something more
tolerable.  On the other hand, long trips leave lots of time for
fun and games like "self-improvment" (Gee! I didn't know this ship
had a shooting range!), and "capture-the-bridge" (I don't understand
*why* the Captain is soooo upset!).

> ...been watching all this talk about Black Globes and reactionless
> thrusters, and I just have to laugh. ...

Robert?  You seem to fall into the same category of people who say
"It's Just A Show!  Get A Life!"  To which I say:

	So What!  WE LIKE TRYING TO FIGURE IT OUT!

It doesn't matter if we KNOW that it isn't going to work in real life,
it's enough if we can come up with something that doesn't bend too many
rules and is internally consistent!  The question is, which rules are
we going to bend and by how much!  THAT's what we're arguing about! :-)

Which is *precisely* what the TDR development team is going to have to
do.  Decide which rules to bend and by how much.  Yes, the trade rules
and such are desparately in need of fixing, but how can you fix them when
you don't know how long it takes to get from here to there, or how much
it's going to cost you to transport that cargo over that distance?

Without having both maneuver and FTL drive pinned down, you can't figure
what is "reasonable" for cargo/costs/sizes/values/etc...  Sure, you can
come up with some pretty good formulas, but you need some constants to
plug into the formulas so that the number of useless cargos generated are
not so many that you roll dozens of times before you get one viable cargo
that doesn't even fill your cargo space!  Yet the cargos generated should
allow for the chance that bad choices will lead to financial problems.

I suppose that the first thing to do is to decide what features depend
on which others, praying that there aren't too many circular dependencies.

Here, I'll start the chart:

	Maneuver Drive ____
		^          \
		|           > Ship Design ---> Cargo Viability
	FTL Drive _________/

Before you can develop good formulas for generating cargo, you have to know
how much it costs to transport the goods and how long it takes to get there.
(Some cargos are perishable.)  Before you can know that, you have to have your
ship design methods layed out, because without that, you've no idea what your
average ship capacities are.  Before that, you have to have some idea how your
Maneuver and FTL Drives work, because they will affect what you can get away
with in Ship Design.  Before that, you have to decide just how your FTL drive
is going to work.  Like, are you required to move away from gravity wells for
it to work efficiently?  How far?  This will affect what your maneuver drive
must be capable of for your FTL drive to work.  If you're not required to move
away from a gravity well, then do you have to be outside atmosphere?  If not,
then why bother with a maneuver drive anyway?

Get the idea?  Yes, the design process is probably going to be somewhat
iterative, but if you get the basics nailed down carefully enough, the
rest shouldn't be too bad.

	    ABOVE ALL, MAINTAIN INTERNAL CONSISTENCY!

I don't think there's anything that ticks an RPGer off more, than a
game which isn't internally consistent.  Such inconsistency normally
shows up in the rules, making it hard to play.

				    Good Luck!
- - -- 
Preferred: elw@netx.com			Edwin Wiles, NetExpress Inc., Vienna, VA
Alternate: ...!grebyn!netex!elw

-------- End of TML Messages --------


-------- TML Message #1858 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1858
From: Edwin Wiles <elw@netx.COM>
Subject: Elm/Perl DeDigestifier
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 90 2:01:36 EST

[I modified one of the mailing list addresses in the dedigestifier
below.  The TML submission address is "traveller@metolius.wr.tek.com",
NOT the obsolete "traveller@dadla.la.tek.com".  -- James]

#! /bin/sh
# This is a shell archive, meaning:
# 1. Remove everything above the #! /bin/sh line.
# 2. Save the resulting text in a file.
# 3. Execute the file with /bin/sh (not csh) to create the files:
#	README
#	elmdigest
#	dedigest
# This archive created: Tue Nov 27 02:00:42 1990
export PATH; PATH=/bin:$PATH
if test -f 'README'
then
	echo shar: will not over-write existing file "'README'"
else
sed 's/^X//' << \SHAR_EOF > 'README'
XPerl is REQUIRED for this to work.  ELM is suggested, but if it isn't
Xavailable, you can probably subsitute your own mail reader.  Don't ask
Xme questions, I haven't got time.
X
XThis software is provided without waranty or guarantee of any sort.
X
XThe original was Copyright (C) 1990  David J. Camp, under the terms
Xof the GNU Software License.  The original is NOT available from this
Xsite, but is no doubt available from a number of other sites.  The
Xfull notification was removed from the scripts as it was longer than
Xthe scripts themselves.  (One of the annoying aspects of GNU.)
X
XYou may be able to reach D.J. Camp at the following addresses:
X
Xdavid@wubios.wustl.edu                 ^        Mr. David J. Camp
Xdavid%wubios@wugate.wustl.edu        < * >      +1 314 382 0584
X...!uunet!wugate!wubios!david          v
X
XEnjoy!
X---
XPrefered.: elw@netx.com				Edwin Wiles
XAlternate: ...!grebyn!netex!elw			NetExpress Inc., Suite 300,
XWho?  Me?!?  Responsible!?!  Surely You Jest!	Vienna, VA, USA 22182
SHAR_EOF
fi # end of overwriting check
if test -f 'elmdigest'
then
	echo shar: will not over-write existing file "'elmdigest'"
else
sed 's/^X//' << \SHAR_EOF > 'elmdigest'
X:
X#    This is 'elmdigest', a program to view a folder made from a digest.
X#    Copyright (C) 1990  David J. Camp,  Modified 1990, E.L. Wiles.
X#
Xset -v
Xperl /usr2/elw/bin/dedigest > /tmp/di$$
Xelm -f /tmp/di$$ < /dev/tty
X/bin/rm /tmp/di$$
SHAR_EOF
chmod +x 'elmdigest'
fi # end of overwriting check
if test -f 'dedigest'
then
	echo shar: will not over-write existing file "'dedigest'"
else
sed 's/^X//' << \SHAR_EOF > 'dedigest'
X######
X# This is 'dedigest' a program to convert a digest to a folder.
X# Currently hardcoded to support only the traveller digest.
X# Copyright (C) 1990  David J. Camp.  Modified 1990, E. L. Wiles.
X####################################
X#	This is a PERL script and must be invoked via "perl dedigest".
X
Xwhile (<>)
X{
X    if (substr ($_, 0, 3) eq "---")
X    {
X	$not_post_subject=1;
X	print "From dummy Wed Feb  29 12:12:12 1990\n";
X	do
X	{
X	    $_ = <>;
X	}
X	until (eof() || 0 != tr/\041-\177/\041-\177/);
X    }
X    $not_post_subject=0 if m/^Subject: /o;
X    s/^>From: /From: /o if $not_post_subject;
X    print $_;
X    print "Cc: traveller@metolius.wr.tek.com (Traveller Mailing List)\n"
X	if ( m/^From: /o );
X}
SHAR_EOF
fi # end of overwriting check
#	End of shell archive
exit 0

-------- TML Message #1859 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1859
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.COM>
Subject: Just How low IS "Low Recoil"?
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 90 0:36:29 PST

In TML note 1856, Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk> writes:

> > MT does NOT list gauss weapons as being "recoilless".  They list them as
> > being "low recoil", which is appropriate.  If you consider both F=ma and
> > Newton's 3rd Law ("Equal and opposite reaction") then the amount of enery
> > delivered to each gauss needle (and thus acceleration, since the needle's
> > mass is constant) is equal to the amount of recoil energy delivered to
> > the gauss weapon firing the needle.
> 
> Time for some number crunching.  First, a correction to the above.  It's
> momentum, not energy, that Newton's 3rd law deals with.

You're picking nits, Adrian.  Assume the following symbols:
        m = mass of the gauss needle
        a = acceleration of the needle at the barrel mouth
        M = mass of the gauss rifle
        A = acceleration of the rifle in the opposite direction
If ma=F->, then MA=<-F, right?  By definition, "Momentum" is the magnitude
of F, without the vector component (staight out of Halliday & Resnick's
"Fundanemtals of Physics").

>                                                          Figures for
> Traveller assault rifle and gauss rifle come from Book 4; figures for M-16
> assault rifle come from "The Armory" by Kevin Dockery, in brackets in the
> assault rifle part for comparison.
> 
>       Mass of a fully loaded assault rifle = 3.33 kg     (3.635 kg)
>       Mass of a 6mm slug from assault rifle = 0.005 kg   (0.00365 kg)
>       Velocity of slug = 900 m/s                         (999.7 m/s)
> =>    Momentum of slug = 4.5 kg m/s                      (3.65 m/s)
> By Newton's 3rd law, momentum of rifle = 4.5 kg m/s in the other direction.
> =>    Velocity of rifle = 1.35 m/s                       (1.0 m/s)

These values are slightly off (you've listed the UNLOADED wt. of the M-16
and the slug velocity is a little low for a std. DoD issue M193 ball round),
but I accept your point.

> 
>       Mass of a fully loaded gauss rifle = 3.90 kg
>       Mass of a 4mm needle from gauss rifle = 0.004 kg
>       Velocity of needle = 1500 m/s
> =>    Momentum of slug = 6 kg m/s
> =>    Momentum of gauss rifle = 6 kg m/s the other way
> =>    Velocity of rifle = 1.54 m/s
> =>    A gauss rifle is no more a low recoil weapon than an assault rifle.

Let's qualify that: it's no more low recoil that a 5.56mm assault rifle.
I don't argue this, ever.  The flaw in your argument is assuming that the
5.56mm assault rifle IS NOT ALSO A LOW RECOIL WEAPON.  It is, in fact,
just that.  Have you ever fired an M-16?  You can do it with one hand,
you know.  It has almost no kick.

If compare the M-16 to a "real" assault rifle (my definition of "real";
you're mileage may vary), like the 7.62mm ARM/AR Galil, there's a noticable
difference.  Chambering the NATO M59 ball round, the values for it are:
        Mass of a fully loaded rifle = 4.07 kg (w/ loaded 35 rnd. clip)
        Mass of std. slug = 150.5 gr. = 9.75 g. = 0.00975 kg
        Velocity of slug = 2789 ft/s. = 850 m/s
        Momentum of slug = 8.29 kg m/s
using the same math you use (which I'm not contending, BTW), we get:
        Velocity of rifle = 2.04 m/s
This is about 130% that of the gauss rifle and the MT Player's Manual refers
to this type of weapon as "Med. Recoil" (see the entry "Assault Rifle (7mm)
on pg. 76).

Let's compare the momentum of the 5.56mm slug to a different, but popular,
American round: the std. .22 Long Rifle round.  According to "Cartridges
of the World" - 6th Ed., it has the following stats:
        Mass of std. slug = 40 gr. = 2.59 g. = 0.00259 kg.
        Muzzle velocity of slug = 1150 ft/s. = 350 m/s
        Momentum of slug = 0.908 kg m/s
Now, if we use that round in my Ruger 10/22 (a .22 semi-auto sports rifle),
which has the following weight:
        Mass of loaded rifle = 4.8 lb. = 1.8 kg.
We get a recoil momentum of:
        Velocity of rifle = 0.5 m/s.
Now, that's only about 37% of the M-16, and about 33% of the gauss rifle.
(I guess that makes it a "No Recoil" weapon.) :-)  The reason I include
this round is that I'd wager that almost everybody on the TML has fired
a .22 cal. rifle (or pistol) and some point in their life, so it gives
a common ground for interpretation.  The 7.62mm round fired by the Galil,
on the other hand, is a Winchester .308 round in civilian life; a big
game hunting round.  The 5.56mm M-16 is about in the middle, as is the
gauss rifle (although tending slightly towards the higher end).  This
pretty definitely puts both of them in the "Low Recoil" catagory, at
least by MT combat standards.

One last point, the MT Imperial Encyclopedia (pg. 71) states that standard
equipment for the gauss rifle includes gyrostabilization.  If that addition
doesn't make it "Low Recoil", then I don't know what does.

References for the weapons and ammo data:
        1) Modern American Weapons - edited by Ray Bonds;
                                Prentiss-Hall, 1986.
        2) Modern Land Combat - David Miller & Christopher F Foss;
                                Portland House, 1987.
        3) World Military Power - Chris Bishop & David Donald;
                                The Military Press, 1987.
        4) Cartridges of the World, 6th Ed. - Frank C. Barnes & Ken Warner;
                                DBI Books Inc., 1989.
        5) The Palladium Book of Contemporary Weapons - Maryann Siembieda;
                                Palladium Books, 1984.
                NOTE: I include this last entry only because it is a
                handy, fairly accurate, quick reference for an RPG.
                It is not a definitive source, by any means.

        Mark F. Cook

USMail: User Interface Technical Support
        Hewlett-Packard - Interface Technology Operation
        1000 NE Circle Blvd.  Corvallis, OR 97330

INTERNET: markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
          markc%hpcvss.cv.hp.com@relay.hp.com

-------- TML Message #1860 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1860
From: "Brent L. Woods" <woodsb@zoo.ecn.purdue.edu>
Subject: Re: (1835) "Leviathan" ships
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 90 5:35:54 EST


 In message 1835, jim@oasis.icl.stc.co.uk (Jim Cheetham) writes:
 >
 >...throw such a huge spanner in the works...

     I've seen this phrase before.  Never understood it, though.  What's
a "spanner?"

 >(Mind you, that's AOK for 1/2 man fighters, but how do they protect
 > the Leviathan ships? They're several kilometers long ... Hmmm ...)

     I had to look twice at this.  If "Leviathan" is being used as an
adjective, then okay.  If you mean the merchant ship from Adventure 4,
that's only 53.5 meters long (from the specs).

     Come to think of it, I've never heard of a ship several kilometers
long in Traveller.  Even the big ships from Supplement 9 aren't anywhere
near that big.  Have I missed something?


- - --
     Brent

INTERNET:  woodsb@gn.ecn.purdue.edu
USNAIL:  2818 S. Sunrise Dr.  /  New Palestine, IN  46163
PHONE:  +1 (317) 861-4844 (voice)

[A spanner is a wrench with a handle and an adjusting screw so you can
use it on a wide range of bolt sizes.  In the states we call this a
"crescent wrench", or a "monkey wrench" (the latter refers to an
aggressively-toothed and levered version used by plumbers for turning
threaded pipe).  Imagine a large machine with gears and rods, etc.  (the
"works") then throw one of these wrenches into it (the "spanner") to get
caught on a gear...  There is also the joke played on new Navy recruits,
where they are asked to find a left-handed spanner -- all spanners are
usable by either hand! -- James]


-------- TML Message #1861 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1861
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 90 10:08 EDT
From: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Subject: TDR and the Big Kids


Some questions have been raised about the relationship between TDR and
the companies publishing MegaTraveller; I think these should be answered 
clearly before we finish anything concrete.

I should soften my statement that we are going to avoid mingling TDR with
involvement from GDW (unlikely at best) or DGP (somewhat more possible)
"at all costs." Obviously this can't be done; the gaming community is a 
small one, and word gets around. So the policy I'd like to adopt is one
of careful distancing from the "official line" until we have something
to show for our efforts. Remember-- we're doing these rules because we've
seen several areas of Traveller, which is overall a wonderful game, that
are, well, BROKEN. And we want to fix them, basically. So what we're 
doing here is creating OUR vision of a repaired MT rules system: Traveller
Done Right. This defines the parameters of TDR as a product: we are not
licensed by GDW to sell it, therefore we cannot, so it MUST be made
available for free, and we cannot represent it as anything remotely 
resembling officialdom. Recall DGP's efforts to "fix" Traveller resulted
in MegaTraveller, a major overhaul whose improvements have often been
ignored in the light of some of the bigger gaffes. We're taking the next
step with TDR, but somehow I doubt that either GDW or DGP is willing to
consider Traveller rev 3.0 just yet. So we need to get our ideas out there
and have them playtested and beaten upon for a while, resulting in updates
and improvements once in a while and in the end, a system that maybe, 
POSSIBLY, might get looked at by GDW and DGP as a worthwhile variant or
addition to the MT rules. This will take years, and as long as copyright
is retained we will always have the option of licensing, but as of now
any involvement with DGP or GDW on an official level is out of the question.

That having been said, let me second Mark's motion and say, get the rules
in BEFORE we try to decide how to distribute them; stop talking and start
doing, folx. (And lest ye point at me, I have a few things of my own on
the way: with Dow, a fixed trade/commerce system, and on my own, an 
expanded skill list and the beginnings of a TON of equipment and weapons
data.)

metlay


-------- TML Message #1862 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1862
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 90 10:52:08 -0500
From: "T. L. Hayes" <al646@cleveland.freenet.edu>
Subject: Random Thoughts



Traveller on Fusion:

On page 83 of the Referee's Manual it refers to hydrogen fuel and
hydrogen gas (unrefined fuel).  Hydrogen gas is skimmed from gas giants
which we all know are not pure hydrogen but rather hydrogen compounds.
Therefore it seems reasonable to assume that the fusion plants use plain
hydrogen as fuel.  Burning unrefined fuel means injecting hydrogen
compounds (such as water or methane) into the reaction chamber and letting
the ultra-high temperatures break down the molecule and fuse the hydrogen.
The problem with unrefined fuel then is that you have less hydrogen per unit
volume and more non-fuel particles in the way.

Assuming then a p-p chain like reaction (or a related reaction such as the
C-N-O catalytic fusion cycle) neutrinos will be emitted and be detectable
as moving neutrino "hot spots" in the otherwise stationary neutrino
background.  Triangulation will allow estimates of range for reasonably
close targets.  Flux will allow estimates of energy generation.

About Refineries:

I can find no place that says 1 ton of skimmed material will be processed
into 1 ton of refined fuel, therefore since this makes no sense it must not
be the case.  Refineries are rated in kiloliters/6 hours.  I take this to
mean, given raw material, the refinery can produce x kl/6 hours.  How much
raw material depends on the gas giant (or more generally the source).  
Remember 1 ton actually means 13.5 kl (a volume).  So the referee needs to
assign a percentage yeild to the material being processed.  One way to
estimate the percentage yeild of a material would be to estimate the number
of molecules present in 1 kl.  Then multiply by the number of hydrogen atoms
in each molecule (ie 2 for water).  Then see what volume that much hydrogen
would occupy.  The ratios of the volumes is the percentage yeild.  You 
could say that the purification times are for some averagy yeild and high
yeild gas giants would take less time while low yeild gas giants would
take longer.  For mixed material simply use ratios ie if water yeilds 25%
hydrogen and methane yeilds 40% hydrogen then something thats half water
and half methane would yeild (25/2 + 40/2) 32.5% hydrogen.  This can get
very messy very quickly so an alternative is to simply classify the gas
giants as average, high, and low yeild and then adjust processing times
accordingly. (Note the numbers for water and methane are made up.)

Speaking of Volume:

Has anyone considered compressing the hydrogen?  That is putting the same
amount of fuel into a smaller space thus allowing more room for other things?
What I like to do is design the ship as normal but then when I draw it I
don't put in the fuel storage until last.  This allows some "artistic" 
flare when laying out the ship.  i can put in hallways and common areas and
the like (within reason) then when I am finished I take the left over space
and put the fuel in there.  If there isn't enough left over space, then the
fuel is compressed!  I usually end up with about a 2 or 3 compression ratio
at most.  The actual weight of the ship would be higher than calculated
from the books but not alot because the extra space is not used for additional
equipment (cargo space or staterooms or the like) but rather for open spaces
like hallways.  Comments?

TLH

- - --
T.L.Hayes                  |
MIT/Lincoln Laboratory     |
Lexington, MA              |

-------- TML Message #1863 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1863
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 90 08:40 EST
From: Gerry Williams <gsw@moss.att.COM>
Subject: Volume of a tetrahedron

I didn't remember the formulas either, but I was able to derive them
(hopefully I did this correctly):

                          A * h
V (Volume of a pyramid) = -----
                            3
                                                 2
                                      SQRT(3) * e
A (Area of an equilateral triangle) = ------------
                                           2

                              SQRT(2) * e
h (Height of a tetrahedron) = -----------
                                SQRT(3)

e (Length of a side)

                   3                    2
If V = 50,000,000 m , then A = 219,130 m .

Also, h = 411 m, and finally, e = 503 m.

The Alcyon is roughly 500 meters on a side, and is over 400 meters tall.

*********
Gerald Williams (aka Morton Limner)
att!moss!gsw
gsw@moss.att.com
(201)386-2059
*********

-------- TML Message #1864 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1864
Subject: Re: Random Thoughts 
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 90 10:34:49 PST
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@metolius.WR>


T L Hayes writes:
> ....  Burning unrefined fuel means injecting hydrogen
> compounds (such as water or methane) into the reaction chamber and letting
> the ultra-high temperatures break down the molecule and fuse the hydrogen.
> The problem with unrefined fuel then is that you have less hydrogen per unit
> volume and more non-fuel particles in the way.

Okay, I just can't stay out of this discussion any longer.

When the unrefined fuel enters the reactor, it takes additional energy
to break apart the moecules and ionize the atoms -- considerable energy
in the case of all non-hydrogen elements.  So, the reactor must be run
at a higher fuel flow rate than was necessary for refined fuel, to get
the same output; or in the case of jump engines, it may be difficult to
get power flow to be well-regulated, depending on vagaries in the mix.

Also, the garbage elements absorb neutrons and other particles; in
general, causing the reaction to be less controlled, and slurping up
still more energy.  The isotope transmutation and added scattering leads
to residual radioactivity of the reactor chamber, and accelerates the
normal plasma bombardment/destruction of the chamber's walls.  The end
result is that the reactor chamber needs replacement much more often,
sensors controlling the reaction are more likely to fail, and with the
increased radioactivity one is more likely to have ionization problems
in nearby electronics and power control circuits.

Commercial engines are DESIGNED to run on refined fuel, so they are
smaller, lighter, less shielded, and have less robust control
mechanisms.  Military drives that run on unrefined fuel are built much
more like a brick caca house, are designed to have the reactor chamber
replaced easily and quickly in the field, have more backup control
mechanisms, plus lots of spares are on board to replace the occasional
failure.  The waste reactor cores can be easily and cheaply placed in a
military rad weapons dump somewhere, and so on.  It's only money, and
the military is allowed to spend lots of it.

> Has anyone considered compressing the hydrogen?

I was always under the belief that fuel hydrogen was stored as a
cryogenic liquid.  Liquids are awfully hard to compress.  The only
possible compression I see possible is to solidify it, which is very
hard to do (need very high pressures) with hydrogen, besides which you'd
need to thaw it out to use it in the engines.

I tend not to worry about deck plans being real accurate; they are there
as additional detail to make the fictional universe more palpable.
Besides, the "rule"books indicate that 10% slop either way on deck plan
volumes is acceptable.  I also figure that there are many nooks and
crannies aboard the vessel which are difficult to depict on deck plans,
but are used by something, either freeing additional room for fuel or
actually used for fuel storage itself... as a case in point, have you
ever done a deck plan of a Scout-shaped ship? With such a shape, it
doesn't translate real well to paper (how big a triangle do I draw to
map deck 1? deck 2? Heck, I'll make a rough guess :-).

James
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Traveller Mailing List Administrator	     James T Perkins @ Tektronix, Inc
traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com	     Beaverton, Oregon, USA
uunet!metolius.wr.tek.com!traveller-request  "Load Auto/Evade, Beowulf!"

-------- TML Message #1865 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1865
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.COM>
Subject: TDR Vehicle Design & Combat
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 90 12:29:23 PST

>From Burton Choinsk <CHOINSKI@s35.prime.COM>

>>From: John Wilber <wilber%aludra.usc.edu@usc.edu>
>
>>VEHICLE DESIGN
>>
>>I think that TDR should have a vehicle design system that would apply
>>across the whole range of vehicle sizes- kind of like a "unified field
>>theory" of vehicle design.  Again, I think _Striker_ has the right
>>idea.  I like Striker's system because you know that the resultant
>>vehicle is x meters wide, y meters tall, and z meters long, unlike
>>MegaTraveller.  The designer would use the same rules for designing any
>
>I feel that unifying this much is too much of a good thing.  A car is not
>a boat, nor is a sub a spaceship.

If you think about it, there's less truth to this statement than you may
think.  At the current TL (ours; 8, I think) cars and boats are almost
identical: they both have internal combustion engines; they both are
semi-waterproof (cars from the top, boats from the bottom); they both
have similiar ranges, speeds, and capacities.  The same is true for
subs and spaceships: both have self-contained life support systems;
both are large, cumbersome, and expensive; both require extremely high
tech guidance and propulsion systems; both require crews of >1; both
require exotic fuels (LOX and hydrazine for the rockets, uranium for
the subs); etc.

>                                   There should probably be three sets of
>design rules, based on a common core:
>
>   Ground vehicles: Cars, trucks, etc.  No grav stuff, but includes hovercraft.
>   Watercraft:      Boats, subs, etc.
>   Aircraft:        Grav craft, spacecraft, etc.
>
>I think it should be broken up a bit just because of the differences in design
>philosophy.  If you wish to make an aero-car, you would use the basic aircraft
>rules and add vehicle stuff.  A sub-plane would use either the aircraft or
>watercraft rules, depending on primary emphasis.

Well, at high TLs, where do you draw the line?  When does a gravitic ground
vehicle stop becoming a ground vehicle and start becoming an air vehicle?
If you're going base your rule separation strictly on type of propulsion
system, how granular to you get?  What is an air cushion vehicle: ground,
water, or air?  Why slam it into ground vehicles when it could just as
easily be put in one of the other two?  This seems highly arbitrary to me.

By creating a single "unified" set of design rules, you no longer have
to worry about those (artificial) boundaries.  If the rules big enough
to cover everything seem unwieldy, you simply design them such that
certain unneccessary components become optional (like weapon, environment,
and computer control components for a skateboard).  In a modular, unified
system, you have the best of both worlds: everything is designed the same
way, but you only use what you need.  And the biggest plus of all is that
you don't have to duplicate common design rules for separate systems.

>IMHO, the "overall body damage" system is outdated and should be
>eliminated.  Also, the direct use of characteristics for "hitpoints"
>should be dropped in favor of a more abstract system (perhaps similar to
>"STAR WARS").  Each character is given a "toughness" rating (based on
>Strength, Endurance, and some racial modifiers -- kkee should be tougher
>then humans).  When a character's armor is breached, the "degree of damage
>(DOD)" is determined.  If an optional hit location table is used, head hits
>might be DODx10, arms DODx1/2, etc.  By cross referencing the DOD with the
>toughness, you can determine wounding (superficial, light, moderate,
>serious, critical, lethal).
>
>This system would retain enough of the old system, but add some "space
>opera-ish" taste.

If this is the kind of combat system you want, then you're probably gonna'
love the one Iain Fogg and I are almost finished with.  Heavily based on
Cyberpunk's "Friday Night Firefight", it uses weapon damage translated
into wound types: Flesh, Serious, Critical, Mortal, and Dead.  These
wounds are modified by a BODY TYPE (Very Weak, Weak, Avg., Strong, Very
Strong), so that a K'Kree would naturally be tougher that a Human.

Wait and see.

        Mark F. Cook

USMail: User Interface Technical Support
        Hewlett-Packard - Interface Technology Operation
        1000 NE Circle Blvd.  Corvallis, OR 97330

INTERNET: markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
          markc%hpcvss.cv.hp.com@relay.hp.com

-------- TML Message #1866 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1866
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 90 13:18:25 PST
From: Vote For NoneOfTheAbove Write In Candidate 27-Nov-1990 1032 <baranski@meridn.enet.dec.COM>
Subject: TDR reviewers, drives, etc

RE: TDR rules categories & help

While I don't think I can add much in the way of writing concrete rules, I'd be
happy to review rules submissions, and in general bounce ideas around.
Is there a TDR category for that, or are such a dime a dozen? :-)  I'm not up
on the lastest Traveller, but have good experience with 'classic' Traveller,
and designing homebrew rules systems.

RE: Survey list

You know, this is the first time that I've ever seen anything resembling a list
of who's who in the TML.  Don'cha think it would be nice to know a bit about
who's who?  who knows, maybe there are some Traveller types near me???

RE: TDR rules categories

Should we have rules dealing with world's TL as mentioned in the TCS question?
What's the chances of varying TL pieces of equipment actually working together?
In one of the Star Wars books, the Falcon's control system gets shot up, so Han
Solo cobbles together a 'fluidics' control system;  I thought it was laughable!

RE: TDR drives

In general, Traveller ships seem to have two or three types of drives: jump
drives, and maneuver drives, and perhaps gravitic drives.  The Jump drive is
used for interstellar travel, the maneuver drives are used for interplanetary
travel, and the gravitics drives are used to land the ship without damaging the
real estate.

I don't like having to have three drives, but they seem to be necessary. 
Assuming that the maneuver drive is a reaction drive, you need some other sort
of drive to land without destroying the place.  Are there other ways to land
ships?  Are there reaction drives that are not destructive?  Some scenarios
have space ports have gravitic landing platforms, and scorched earth wilderness
landings.  I kind of like that.

If you have a gravitic landing drive, perhaps it's combined with the shipboard
gravity equipment, so that it's essentially free?  In any case, I'd like to be
able to design ships without gravity equipment.

I definitely don't like the idea of the maneuver drives being (anti)gravity
drives.  In my mind an antigravity drive has to have a nearby mass to work
against, and I question if antigrav vehicles should work further in space then
low orbit.  I'm sure there are ways to explain it away, such that the gravity
drive generates a gravity field, and the ship falls toward it, but for some
reason it goes against my grain.  It seems like pulling a rabbit out of a hat! 
Does anyone else have such misgivings?

I like the idea of maneuver drives being reaction drives.  Traditionally
spacecraft have always had some kind of jets or exhaust, even the highest TL,
and I don't want to change that.  However, it seems that the physics doesn't
work, if I'm following the TML discussion correctly.

There are other possibilities for maneuver drives other then a reaction drive
or a 'rabbit out of a hat' drive, and I hope we can decide on one that fits for
TDR maneuver drives...

Discussion?

RE: TDR unified design rules

It's the only way to go!

RE: Combat systems

I like the idea of being able to figure out where a character has been hit, and
take that in account for damage, but such rules ***must*** be simple and
PLAYABLE!

RE: vehicle movement

I hope that TDR will use the MAYDAY vector movement rules, instead of the
'zones' gimmick use somewhere in Traveller...

Jim Baranski

-------- TML Message #1867 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1867
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 90 01:59:11 CST
From: Roger Opperman <oppr@cardiac-ra.swmed.utexas.edu>
Subject: GR is low recoil


I agree that if the recoil of a GR is equivalent to an M-16 then it
should be classified as LOW recoil.  The combination of low recoil,
high velocity, low cross section and high round mass make the GR very
nice from a military ballistics standpoint.

The GR should also be able to fire ultra-rapid multi-round bursts like
the HK Gll.  It fires 3 rounds so rapidly that the last round is out
of the weapon before the recoil can change the aiming point.  This makes
it MUCH more likely that at least one of the 3 rounds will hit the
target (unlike most modern assault rifles where the action must cycle
completely between each round thus moving the 'aiming' point of each
subsequent round many mils).  The side effect of this is that the net
recoil for the burst is increased.  Tech 8 and 9 ACRs should probably
have this capability also.

Another area I'd like to see discussed is the use of gyrostabilizers
on personal weapons.  It seems that they would make the aiming process
more difficult unless they kicked in at a relatively late stage in the
process (maybe activated by trigger pull).

Regards

Roger Opperman
oppr@cardiac-ra.swmed.utexas.edu

-------- TML Message #1868 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1868
Date:     Wed, 28 Nov 90 10:35:30 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Robot Design Format

I have appended one robot design to this message, which I trust won't be enough
to offend anyone.  As you are all aware, the scheduled MegaTraveller robot book
isn't on any DGP schedule I've seen lately, so anyone wanting to use robots is
forced to limp along with Book 8.  The following is my attempt to lay out a
Book 8 robot in a format similar to the current "standard vehicle" format, 
hopefully with enough info that anyone could "reverse engineer" the design if
necessary.  I did this a while ago, so I *think* that I laid out any components
in the Referee's Manual Vehicle system according to that system rather than
Book 8, and revised the Book 8 configuration numbers to match the vehicles.  
Damage values are calculated as per the DGP ref's screen (Vol in liters/10),
so don't multiply them by 10 like you would for a vehicle.  This still means 
there is a factor of 10 difference in damage points between a "robot" and a
"vehicle".  Should 'bots be tougher than cars?  I apologize for not doing 
this to some more generally usable robot.  If anyone likes this format, I've
got a dozen or so more general purpose robots I could convert.

Rob Dean

  Imperial Glisten Navy Model 5 Warbot TL15
  
       This warbot is produced by ConTech of Glisten for use by the IGN.  Not 
  substantially more expensive than the equipment carried by a marine in bat-
  tledress, the Model 5 can be used to supplement the capabilities of a human 
  unit, and can be expended in suicidal attacks without qualms if necessary.
  
    RobotID: IGN Model 5 Warbot, TL15, Cr362,300
    Chassis: 10/25, Disp=150L, Conf=2SL, Armor=18G, Weight=231.4kg     
      Power: 2/4, FuelCells=60KW, Dur=10/30
       Loco: 2/4, LPHvyGrav=0.4t, TopSpeed=860kph, Cruise=648kph, NOE=190kph,
             MaxAccel=0.72G
       Comm: Radio=Continental(5000km), MaserComm=VDist(50km)
    Sensors: 2 Visual (telescopic, light intensifying), 2 Audio, 1 Olfactory
        Off: FGMP-14
  
                        Pen/          Max     Auto   Dngr
                        Attn    Dmg   Range   Tgts   Spc    Sig  Rec  ROF
               FGMP-14  34/2    14    Distant   -    4.5     H    H    -
  
        Def: Extensive ECM
      Brain: CPU=1 Synaptic, 10 Parallel, 30 Linear, Storage=30 Standard
    Program: Low Autonomous, Full Command, Energy Weapon-3, Grav Vehicle-2, 
             Infantry Combat-1, Tactics-1
      Other: Fuel=35.8L, Profile=7F83

-------- TML Message #1869 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1869
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 90 10:49:38 PST
From: Vote For NoneOfTheAbove Write In Candidate 28-Nov-1990 1315 <baranski@meridn.enet.dec.COM>
Subject: Shipping?  Common or Rare?

The Standard 'classic' Traveller cargo charts have basically every cargo known
to man.  I have the feeling that this is not realistic.  In my opinion, it
seems like the only reason for shipping X from point A to point B is because X
is not economically available at point B.  Either it just isn't available, or
you can produce X at point A and ship it to point B cheaper then you can
produce it at point B.

How much does it cost to ship X?  This is what will determine whether if you
can produce X at both places, but for different costs, whether it's feasible to
ship X from point A to point B.

Think about it...  Why ship something when you can produce it where you need
it?  Why carry bauxite from system A to system B when you can mine it in system
B?  I have a hard time believing that there will be a lot of this type of
shipping going on.  I think it's more likely that only rare refined alloys
would be shipped.  In general, it's better to ship finished products, rather
then raw materials which in general abound.

Let's think about the real world...  plenty of bannannas are shipped from SA to
NA.  Why?  Because we can't grow bannannas here.  Why do people eat bannannas?
Beats me!  Mostly because they are cheap food, and they taste good.  Why are
they cheap, because they can grow them cheap and ship them cheap.  But it's not
something people "needed" to have, and thus ordered, it was probably a market
that had to be developed.

Another example... Cars.  We make cars in the US, why do we ship them from
Japan to the US?  Because Japan can make them cheaper and better then we can,
and ship them to us and *still* have them be cheap (and better).

Some more examples of raw materials... Oil, steel, ores...  Today all these
materials are shipped all across the world, mostly from areas which have a lot
of these materials to areas which don't have them.  And industrial areas have
to import materials which they don't have locally which they need for their
products, but the imported raw materials should be a small portion of the total
raw materials used.  Japan, for instance imports a lot of raw materials because
they have very little "raw material" there.

However, these activities are all taking place on a global scale, where these
raw materials do exist only in certain places in the world.  I have a hard time
believing that the same circumstances will hold when you are shipping between
planets or systems.  I would think *somewhere* on a planet or system there
would be a quantity of X.  It may be produced in one place in a system, and
used in another place in system, but I doubt much would be shipped outsystem.

Various levels of development also have an effect on shipping.  A colony
system, traditionally imports all it's manufactured goods, and can pay for them
only with raw materials; a colony will not have developed all it's resources
and industries.  A developed system will probably be able to have developed
resources and industries and be relitively self sufficient, and will be
exporting manufactured goods.  A system that has been settled for a *long*
time, like Terra, may have squandered all it's resources, and *have* to import
raw materials, like Japan does, and will have to be able to add sufficient
value to make it worthwhile.

Can we take this into account on shipping charts?

Jim Baranski

-------- TML Message #1870 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1870
Date:     Wed, 28 Nov 90 11:23:23 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  (1864) Re: Random Thoughts

James,

     I like to reply to one point in your message.  You said that commercial
drives were intended to eat refined fuel, while military drives would eat
unrefined fuel.  This is a carryover from old Traveller that has no existence
in the new design rules, as far as I can tell.  What all military ships have
in the new design rules (and all commercial ships, if they're sensible) is the
fule purifier.  As big and bulky as they are under the new rules, they are 
still cost effective when used on commercial ships, at least according to the
current (broken) trade rules.

Rob Dean

[Oops, my classic Traveller background is showing -- James]


-------- TML Message #1871 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1871
Date:    Wed, 28 Nov 90 17:33 EST
From: PHB100@psuvm.psu.edu
Subject: RE:  Just how low IS low recoil?

> Mark Cook says:
>
>One last point, the MT Imperial Encyclopedia (pg. 71) states that standard
>equipment for the gauss rifle includes gyrostabilization.  If that addition
>doesn't make it "Low Recoil", then I don't know what does.
>
How does gyrostab make it low-recoil?  My understanding of how gyros work (not
comprehensive, by any means ;+) don't let them absorb recoil, just help you
keep the gun pointed at the target.  Gyros resist torqueing moments (is my
terminology correct? ) but the full recoil should still hit your shoulder
(wrist, whatever...).

Yes?  No?

- - -------

Disclaimer:  This is me.  Do I sound like anyone else?

Paul Baughman          PHB100@psuvm.bitnet

-------- TML Message #1872 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1872
Subject: CAT -- Clearing the Decks
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 90 8:32:07 PST
From: Richard Johnson <richard@agora.UUCP>

Last week I spouted off about being more interested in working with
TML sophonts on programs to help the GM, than in directly addressing
TDR rules-generation stuff.  This has sparked some interest, and some
heat as well as light.  This message is a summary of CAT to date, a
list of existing participants, and (I hope) removal of some floatsam.

Current participants:
	Richard Johnson		richard@agora.hf.intel.com
	Chuck McKnight 		mcknight@tusun2.mcs.utulsa.edu
	Paul Dale		grue@batserver.
	Dan Corrin		dan@engrg.uwo.ca
	
Others who seem to be interested, by their archives and TML comments,
but who have not actually offered to join in the discussion:
	Jo Jaquinta		lgrant@maths.tcd.ie
	Robert P. Poole		tarquin@athena.mit.edu
	Mark Cook		markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.com

Actually, Mark has participated, but his priorities are for TDR.


We, so far, do not actually have a co-ordinator.  We usually just copy
everyone who is participating, as I am with this message.  This one I
felt should be echoed to the TML as well -- sort of a gentle reminder
to others that if they are interested, they can join in.  The feeling of
most of us is that software is better done quietly in private (and 
wash your hands afterwards. :-)  Actually, we're deliberately trying to
avoid committee-think.

Our primary goal right now was IMHO best expressed by Dan:
	A pc in front of every ref? I could care less. I want a pc in
	front of *me* while I am refing. So do others on the list, and 
	I just think that we should get together to program so we don't 
	waste our efforts.

Chuck is currently doing MSDOS ports of existing software on the TML.
Dan and Paul are working on a Deck Plan generator, and I'm just trying
to collect everything so I can see what programs I want to port to 
what machines.  My eventual goal is to have a bunch of programs we can
put together as a package for distribution, a package that covers most 
of the most-needed stuff.

I think most of us are out for personal fun, not profit.  We'll take the
cash if it falls in our laps, though.


Mark and Dan have been discussing the role of CAT<-->TDR.  My view, shaped
largely by Dan's, is that we're programming for ourselves, and sharing 
information.  Right now we're doing MT rules, because they exist.  If,
in the future, someone (or several) want to port the programs to TDR rules,
we'll help all we can.


I'm not sure what Robert Poole is doing, but did understand he was archiving
software for TDR, or something like that.  Robert, if you get your copy,
please let at least one of us know if and how we should co-ordinate
efforts.

Richard

-------- End of TML Messages --------


-------- TML Message #1873 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1873
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 90 20:52:38 PST
From: Andrew Salamon <salamon%sdbio2@ucsd.edu>
Subject: Advanced Scientist Character Generation

Hi Y'all!

I haven't had a chance to test this so if any of you have some time to try it
out, or analyze the numbers (or ideas) please let me know.

Two things that I have left out: Law School and Medical School.  If anyone
cares to add them, feel free.

I changed the rules for College because the way they have it in MT it just 
doesn't seem worth wasting an entire term just for a couple of points of Edu.

Please see the the very end of my post for a list of new and modified skills.
If you don't like the changes it shouldn't be too hard to undo them.  Just add
a Field table for Genetics and remove the one for Psychology.  You should also
replace one of the Bio entries under the Biology Field table with Genetics.  
However, I don't think Genetics should have a separate skill of it's own unless
you break some of the other science skills down, too.  Then you could just make
them cascade skills and leave the tables as I have them.

	Genetics
	--------
   1	Genetics 	
   2	Biology
   3	Chemistry
   4	Genetics
   5    Computer
   6    Science

I was inspired to do this by Anton Lewis' playing of a Scientist in the last
MT campaign I played in (except the PBEM game, of course).

**********************************************************************

                Advanced Scientist Character Generation

College:

Homeworld requirements:  Pre-stellar+, Mod pop+
Enrollment: 7+  DM's: +1 if Edu 9+, +1 if Soc B+, +1 if Int 9+, +2 if Int B+
            If not successful, character is still 18 years old and may attempt
            to begin another career.
Pick a General Field of Study: Science, Social Science, General Degree,
			       Engineering.
Success:  Basic = 9+, Low Honors = 11+, High Honors = 14+ (one roll)
	  DM's: +1 if General Degree, +1 if Edu 8+
		+1 if Int 8+, +2 if Edu 9+
		+2 if Int 10+, +3 if Edu 10+
		+3 if Int 12+, +4 if Edu 11+
  	  If not successful, character is 20 years old and may attempt to 
          begin another career.
Edu: 1D6-4  DM's: +1 if Low Honors, +2 if High Honors, -1 if in Sports
     (Minimun of 1)
Skills:  Science: Science, Academic
	 Social Science: Academic-2
	 General Degree: Edu +1, Academic
	 Engineering: 1D6 4+ for each skill: Mech, Elect, Gravitics, Science

Options: Scholarship: 10+ DM's: +1 if Edu 9+, +2 if Int 10+, +2 if ROTC
		      Character is sent to a college on another planet.  
		      Adopted Homeworld is one level higher in population and
		      one level higher in Technoglogy.
		      (ie Mod pop -> Hi pop, Pre-Stellar -> Early Stellar)
		      If roll is 13+ increase pop and tech by two levels. 
		      Maximum is Hi pop and High Stellar.

	 Reserve OTC: Army/Marines	9+  DM: +1 if Str 9+
		      Navy		10+ DM: +1 if Soc A+
		      COACC		9+  DM: +1 if Dex 9+
		      Wet Navy		9+  DM: +1 if End 9+ (Pre-Stellar only)

	 	      If successful, character consults the approptiate 
		      generation tables.  Initial training, if any, takes place
		      during College years.  After College character must serve 
		      at least one term in appropriate service.

		      After first or second term in the military the character 
		      may opt to continue with military service or leave the
		      military and continue with a science career.  Character
		      does not muster out and terms spent in the military do 
		      not contribute to mustering out benefits after a career
		      as a scientist.  

	 Sports:  Roll 9+  DM's: +1 if Str 9+, +1 if End 9+
		  If successful character participates in an official sport.
		  1D6 4+ for each skill: Physical, Hand Combat

	 Sports and ROTC:  Character must first make a determination roll.
			   14+ DM: +det/5.
			   If successful character may make rolls for both
			   sports and ROTC.

After College or Military service or Medical School:
Continue Science Career: 8+  DM's: +2 if Edu 9+, +2 if Int 9+
If Successful: 
   Pick a field to Study:
	(Character must have at least one level of the appropriate skill in
	order to choose a Field.)

	Biology		Engineering	Linguistics
	Chemistry	Robotics	Psychology
	Physics		Computers	History

   Pick an Area in which to Study:
	Academia	Automatic
	Industry	11+  DM's: +1 if rank 4+, +2 if rank 7+, +1 if Int 10+
	Government	10+  DM's: +1 if rank 4+, +2 if rank 6+, +1 if Edu 9+

Each year roll for a new assignment:
	Academia	Industry	Government
	--------	--------	----------
  2	Espionage	Espionage	Espionage
  3	Lab Ship	Espionage	Admin Proj
  4	Lab Ship	Lab Ship	Lab Ship
  5	Admin Proj	Lab Ship	Lab Ship
  6	Lab Proj	Lab Proj	Lab Proj
  7	Lab Proj	Lab Proj	Lab Proj
  8	Lab Proj	Lab Proj	Lab Proj
  9	Admin Proj	Lab Proj	Admin Proj
  10	Sabbatical	Admin Proj	Admin Proj
  11	Sabbatical	Admin Proj	Admin Proj
  12	Special		Special		Special

Resolve each assignment:

Academia    Lab Proj	Admin Proj	Sabbatical	Lab Ship    Espionage
- - -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Survival	4+	    3+		    4+		   5+		6+
Skill		7+	    8+		   Auto		   7+		9+
Award		8+	    8+		    --		   8+		--
Promotion	9+	    8+		    --		   9+		11+
  DM's: Survival: +1 if Terms 4+; Promotion: +2 if rank 6-, +1 if award, 
				  	     +2 if Sector award

Industry    Lab Proj	Admin Proj	Lab Ship    Espionage
- - -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Survival	5+	    3+		   5+		6+
Skill		7+	    8+		   7+		8+
Award		8+	    10+		   9+		--
Promotion	8+	    8+		   8+		10+
  DM's: Survival: +1 if Terms 4+; Promotion: +1 if Int 10+, +1 if award, 
				  	     +2 if Sector award

Government  Lab Proj	Admin Proj	Lab Ship    Espionage
- - -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Survival	4+	    3+		    4+		6+
Skill		7+	    7+		    7+		9+
Award		9+	    8+		    9+		--
Promotion	9+	    8+		    9+		12+
  DM's: Survival: +1 if Terms 4+; Promotion: +1 if Admin 2+, +1 if award, 
				  	     +2 if Sector award

Awards:					       DM to next promotion throw only
Indicated throw or better:  System-wide award		+1
Indicated throw +2 or better: Subsector-wide award	+1
Indicated throw +4 or better: Sector-wide award		+2

Available tables for each assignment:
Lab Project: Field of Study, Area of Study, General, Underside (once per term)
Admin Project: Admin, Area of Study, General, Underside (once per term)
Lab Ship: Field of Study, Area of Study, General, Shipboard (only if rank 6+)
Sabbatical: related Field of Study (see table below), General, Underside
            (once per term)
Espionage: Area of Study, General, Underside (even if this table has already 
	   been used this term)

Related Fields:
Biology:  Chemistry 
Chemistry: Physics, Biology
Physics: Chemistry 
Computer, Robotics, and Engineering are all related.
Psychology, History, and Linguistics are all related.

Field of Study Tables:

  Biology  Chemistry  Physics  Robotics  Computers  Engineering
  -------  ---------  -------  --------  ---------  -----------
1   Bio      Chem       Phys   Robotics    Comp       Engineer
2  Chem      Chem     Robotics   Comp      Elect      Engineer
3   Bio      Comp       Comp   Robotics   Robotics      Mech
4   Bio      Chem       Phys     Elect     Comp         Elect
5  Comp      Phys       Phys     Mech      Comp         Comp
6 Science  Science   Technical Technical  Technical  Technical

  Psychology   History          Linguisitcs
  ----------   -------          -----------
1   Psych      History          Linguistics
2   Comp        Comp             Language
3 Interview    History            History
4   Psych      Linguistics      Linguistics
5   Bio        Archaic Weapons    Liason
6  Academic    Academic          Academic

Area of Study Tables:

      Academia       Industry       Government      DM's: +1 if rank 4+
      --------       --------       ----------            +2 if rank 7+
1     Carousing       Liason           Admin
2    Instruction       Admin        Instruction
3     Interview      Interview         Admin
4    Instruction    Instruction      Carousing
5      Liason        Carousing      Interview
6      +1 Edu          +1 Int       Persuasion
7     Academic       Science         Academic
8      Admin        Persuasion        +1 Soc


   General       Admin       Shipboard        Underside 
   -------       -----       ---------        ---------
1  Physical      Admin       Vacc Suit       Hand Combat
2  Physical    Interview     Vacc Suit         Handgun
3   Mental       Admin       Technical         Vehicle
4   Mental    Instruction    Zero G env         Vice
5  Interpers     Admin       Space Tech        Vehicle
6   Inborn      Academic     Space Tech        Mental

Special Assignments          DM: +1 if previously ROTC
- - -------------------
1  Administration
2  Field Cross Training
3  Area Cross Training
4  Species Cross Training
5  Instruction
6  Underside
7  Military Service

Administration:  roll once on Admin table and once on Field, Area, or General 
                 table.
Field Cross Training:  roll twice on a Field table other than the characters 
                       present Field.
Area Cross Training:  roll twice on an Area table other than the character's
                      present Area.
Species Cross Training: gain linguistics (pick a language) and liason.
Instruction:  gain Instruction and +1 Edu.
Underside:  roll once on Underside table (even if this table has already been 
            used this term) and once on Field, Area, or General table.
Military Service:  Serve one year in previous military organization with same 
                   rank as held before starting science career.

Ranks:

Basic  Adv    
Rank   Rank   Academia                	Industry/Government
- - -----  ----   --------			-------------------
        0     1st Year Graduate Student Junior Lab Technician
  1     1     2nd Year Grad Student     Senior Lab Tech
  1     2     3rd Year Grad Student     Junior Researcher
  2     3     4th Year Grad Student     Senior Researcher
  2     4     Extended Grad Student     Project Supervisor (small project)
  3     5     Extended Grad Student     Project Supervisor (medium project)
  3     6     Junior Post-Grad Student  Project Supervisor (large project)
  4     7     Senior Post-Grad Student  Laboratory Director (small lab)
  4     8     Associate Professor       Lab Director (medium lab)
  5     9     Assistant Professor       Lab Director (large lab)
  5     10    Professor       		Field Administrator
  6     11    Tenured Professor         Department Administrator
  6     12    Professor Emeritus        Research Administrator

Reenlistment at the end of every term:
Academia:     5+  DM's: +1 if rank 4+, +2 if field skill 2+ 
                        +2 if Subsector-wide award previous term
Industry:     6+        +1 if rank 7+, +2 if field skill 2+
                        +2 if Subsector-wide award previous term
Government:   5+        +1 if rank 5+, +1 if Soc B+, +1 if Admin 3+
                        +2 if Subsector-wide award previous term
Automatic reenlistment if: rank 9+ and in Academia, Character received Sector-
                           wide award previous term
(if the character chooses to reenlist)

Special Rules:
  ** 0 ranked characters can not receive awards.
  ** Transfers:  At the end of any term a character may attempt to transfer to 
                 a different Field or Area.
     Field:  11+  DM's: +skill in new field, +1 if related field, +1 if Int 10+
			(Character must have at least one level in appropriate
			 skill.)
     Area:  12+  DM's: +1 if rank 6+, +2 if rank 9+, +1 for each term past 4th
                       +1 for every 2 System-wide awards
		       +1 for every Subsector-wide award
		       +2 for every Sector-wide award
		       +1 for each term past 4th (does not include college or
                                                  military service)
     If successful and the character continues with science carreer in new Area
     or Field, character will lose two levels of rank. (For mustering out, use
     highest rank achieved in any Area or Field.)
  ** If a character used the Underside table more than once (by choice or from
     special assignments) the character loses one level of Social Standing.


Mustering out:
  Academia: Maximum of two rolls on the Credits table, +1 Edu
  Industry: +500 credits for each System-wide award received while in Industry.
	    +1000 credits for each Subsector-wide award.
	    +2000 credits for each Sector-wide award.
  Government: +1 Soc
  
  Use highest level achieved in any Field or Area to determine number of 
  mustering out rolls.

  
New Skills:  Psychology, Martial-Art
Modified Skills: Academia: add Computer to the choices
                 Science: remove Genetics from the choices
                 Hand Combat: add Martial-Art to the choices
		 Genetics: no longer used, use Biology instead.
			   (or you could add sub-branches for all of the 
			    science skills, i.e. Organic Chemistry, Inorganic
			    Chemistry, Particle Physics, Astrophysics, etc. 
			    Then make them cascade skills, which serve as 
			    other sub-branch skills -1 level.)

-------- TML Message #1874 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1874
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 90 08:59:01 +0100
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: (1868)  Robot Design Format

  One thing that IMHO would be nice would be to get the stats for the robot
(ie str, dex, int, edu) preferrably on the "Other:" cathegory since one will
need the book to compute those. 

- - -bertil-
PS: If this message looks strange, it is because my elm has broken down and I
  have to use the inane program "mail" to write this. I hope that I won't
  loose my mailbox becasue it was full of stuff:(

-------- TML Message #1875 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1875
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Mailtrouble...
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 90 12:52:30 MET

  As I implicated in the last message my mailer has broken down and won't
let me read my mail (I can read it with some trouble using vi :)
  It seems that the mailertrouble was harder to do anything about than
I thought. Someone with admin priviliges have to (probably) delete my
mailbox after copying it up to my homedir.

  So far everyone here has been singularily unhelpful:

  "Talk to someone else."
  "I'ts bound to be your own fault."
  "Yes, I'm the one that you should talk to about emergencies, but this
   isn't an emergency, this is just your private problem and I don't
   care how or if you solve it."
  "I don't have root privileges." "But you one of the administrators?!." "As I
   said, this is your own problem."
  "You shouldn't have such a large mailbox." "I didn't have a large mailbox.
   I had just a handful in it, I have had over 50 messages there before and it
   always worked." "Well, you shouldn't have such a large mailbox. If it hadn't
   been so large this would never had happened. No matter the size of it, it 
   was too large because this happened." (Spoken by someone who didn't have
     a faintest about what really had happened with it and didn't think it
     important enough to let me explain what had happened.
     Jeez! Where do they dig them up?)
 
  The matter is made somewhat worse because I'm waiting for stuff to a con
here in Gothenburg to arrive in the mail now soon and the deadline is sunday.

  As you might tell, I'm not in a good mood at all right now.

  I would apreciate it if everyone could delay your mails to me until next
monday. This include TML digests, PBEM things and TDR things and the testing
of the ship design and everything else. The reason for this is that
they might disappear into the big bit bucket by accident or carelessness when
my mailbox is repaired on sunday(?). Im also not sure how much the mailbox can
takes befor it crashes for size reasons. If that happens then the flightpath of
the natural waste products is really going to intersect the moving parts of the
rotating air-stream creation implement:(

- - -bertil-
- - -- 
"Words on the net aren't usually worth the paper they are written on."

-------- TML Message #1876 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1876
From: plb@violin.att.COM
Subject: Re: (1872) CAT -- Clearing the Decks
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 90 9:37:49 EST

Operating System: HP-UX A.B7.00 U
Organization: AT&T-BL, Red Hill System Administration Group (HRSAG)
Location: HR 2C119
Phone: (201) 615-4419
Return-receipt:
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL5]

*| 
*| Last week I spouted off about being more interested in working with
*| TML sophonts on programs to help the GM, than in directly addressing
*| TDR rules-generation stuff.  This has sparked some interest, and some
*| heat as well as light.  This message is a summary of CAT to date, a
*| list of existing participants, and (I hope) removal of some floatsam.
*| 
*| Current participants:
*| 	Richard Johnson		richard@agora.hf.intel.com
*| 	Chuck McKnight 		mcknight@tusun2.mcs.utulsa.edu
*| 	Paul Dale		grue@batserver.
*| 	Dan Corrin		dan@engrg.uwo.ca
*| 	

Add me to that list.   I am MORE than willing to participate.

*| We, so far, do not actually have a co-ordinator.  We usually just copy
*| everyone who is participating, as I am with this message.  This one I
*| felt should be echoed to the TML as well -- sort of a gentle reminder
*| to others that if they are interested, they can join in.  The feeling of
*| most of us is that software is better done quietly in private (and 
*| wash your hands afterwards. :-)  Actually, we're deliberately trying to
*| avoid committee-think.
*| 

OK.  So maybe the fact that the stuff I'm working on already is
written in C++ won't be a problem?   How many folks out there have
access to a C++ compiler?

*| Our primary goal right now was IMHO best expressed by Dan:
*| 	A pc in front of every ref? I could care less. I want a pc in
*| 	front of *me* while I am refing. So do others on the list, and 
*| 	I just think that we should get together to program so we don't 
*| 	waste our efforts.
*| 

My current project for MSDOS is a program called "refaid."  This
program would allow a ref to create "people, places, and things"
and associate them with other "people, places, and things."  Sort
of a tailored RDB program.

*| Chuck is currently doing MSDOS ports of existing software on the TML.
*| Dan and Paul are working on a Deck Plan generator, and I'm just trying
*| to collect everything so I can see what programs I want to port to 
*| what machines.  My eventual goal is to have a bunch of programs we can
*| put together as a package for distribution, a package that covers most 
*| of the most-needed stuff.
*| 

This is the one facet that I had not anticipated working on for
refaid.   

*| I think most of us are out for personal fun, not profit.  We'll take the
*| cash if it falls in our laps, though.
*| 

My plan was to release refaid as a user supported program.  Send me
$ if you want, but mostly I am writing refaid for the fun of it.

*| 
*| Mark and Dan have been discussing the role of CAT<-->TDR.  My view, shaped
*| largely by Dan's, is that we're programming for ourselves, and sharing 
*| information.  Right now we're doing MT rules, because they exist.  If,
*| in the future, someone (or several) want to port the programs to TDR rules,
*| we'll help all we can.
*| 

I think that any programs that get written should have both
elements of regular mainstream traveller as well as TDR.  If
released as source code, compiler/preprocessor directives can be
added to the code to conditionally include/exclude TDR and or MT.

*| 
*| I'm not sure what Robert Poole is doing, but did understand he was archiving
*| software for TDR, or something like that.  Robert, if you get your copy,
*| please let at least one of us know if and how we should co-ordinate
*| efforts.
*| 

I spoke to Robert Poole and I plan to clean up some OT npc
generation programs that I wrote and post them with him.  I also am
going to (I don't know when, I'm real busy right now) port this old
code to MSDOS and release it as executables.  I also want to write
some documentation before releasing it.

I'd love to see all this happen.  I just hope it doesn't die a crib
death.....


- - -- 
- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Peter L. Berghold            |  AT&T, HRSAG, +1 (201) 615-4419        |
|INTERNET: plb@violin.att.com |  UUCP: {uunet!allegra|att}!violin!plb  |
|FAX: 1(201) 706-2004         |                                        |
- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------- TML Message #1877 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1877
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.COM>
Subject: Gyros affecting recoil
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 90 8:51:14 PST

Paul Baughman <PHB100@psuvm.bitnet> writes:

>> Mark Cook says:
>>
>>One last point, the MT Imperial Encyclopedia (pg. 71) states that standard
>>equipment for the gauss rifle includes gyrostabilization.  If that addition
>>doesn't make it "Low Recoil", then I don't know what does.
>
>How does gyrostab make it low-recoil?  My understanding of how gyros work (not
>comprehensive, by any means ;+) don't let them absorb recoil, just help you
>keep the gun pointed at the target.  Gyros resist torqueing moments (is my
>terminology correct? ) but the full recoil should still hit your shoulder
>(wrist, whatever...).
>
>Yes?  No?

Yes AND no, Paul.  You're right that gyros don't absorb any recoil (you'll
still get kicked in the shoulder just as hard).  But that's not the point.
>From both a real-life military standpoint AND a RPG standpoint, the
detrimental effect recoil has on accuracy is barrel climb.  Virtually
nothing else matters.  While the gyro won't do anything to eliminate
in-line recoil (from the receiver back into your shoulder), it will
significantly reduce barrel climb by damping rotation of the weapon
in any axis.  This means that you are less likely to drift off target.
>From there, the benefit is obvious.  (BTW, this is why almost ALL modern
assault rifles have stocks which are DIRECTLY in line with the receiver.
By being designed that way, they cause a higher percentage of the weapon
recoil to be delivered as in-line recoil, thus drastically reducing the
rotation of the weapon due to recoil.  Result: more accurate weapon at
high ROFs.)

        Mark F. Cook

USMail: User Interface Technical Support
        Hewlett-Packard - Interface Technology Operation
        1000 NE Circle Blvd.  Corvallis, OR 97330

INTERNET: markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
          markc%hpcvss.cv.hp.com@relay.hp.com

-------- TML Message #1878 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1878
Subject: Bertil's Mail
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 90 7:57:39 PST
From: Richard Johnson <richard@agora.UUCP>

Bertil Jonnell (d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se) is having mail
trouble, and has requested we refrain from sending him
anything until next Monday.  He thinks he can get the problem
fixed locally, and will have to, since he can't read any
incoming mail.

Thank you for your support.
Richard

-------- TML Message #1879 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1879
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 90 12:37:52 PST
From: Vote For NoneOfTheAbove Write In Candidate 28-Nov-1990 1347 <baranski@meridn.enet.dec.COM>
Subject: Shipping?  Common or Rare?

Shipping in Traveller is more likely to resemble 16th century shipping, where
they shipped stuff from one place to another because X didn't exist at point B.
But how much of this will be going on, when the basics oflife can be provided
with a planet or a system?  There will still be markets for stuff like tea, and
furs, exotic stuff from far off places for people who have a lot of money to
blow, but fewer raw materials.

Another factor is can a TL 12 planet produce *all* the goods required by a TL
12 economy?  Can the same planet or system produce consumer goods, power
plants, jump drives, computers, weapons, air rafts, body armor and hulls?  I
tend to think not.  I think that it's much more likely that planets will
specialize on high tech products, and will export only computers, or only air
rafts or grav tanks.  Supposedly every developed planet has a starport andcan
build spaceships, but that doesn't seem likely.  It seems more likely that only
one planet in a dozen will make a business out of building ships, probably
making the hulls, and importing all the rest.  To do *all* of the economic
activity involved in making a business out of building ships would wear out a
planet quite quickly, I would think maybe a couple of decades.

Can we take these factors into account on shipping charts?

Jim Baranski

-------- TML Message #1880 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1880
Date:     Thu, 29 Nov 90 13:40:17 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Draft Vehicle Design Changes 1.0

        TDR VEHICLE DESIGN SYSTEM
        VERSION 1.0  
        28 NOVEMBER 1990
        ROB DEAN
        
        ***************************************************************
        Remarks will be delineated with rows of asterisks at the 
        beginning and end.
        ***************************************************************
        
        ***************************************************************
        For purposes of this version, all entries will be keyed to the
        MegaTraveller Referee's Manual.  Deleted sections will be noted,
        as will retained sections.
        ***************************************************************
        1: BASIC HULL DESIGN
        
           Volume of Hull=Displacement Tons * 13.5
        
           For Displacement        Mass        Cost
             Less than 1 ton      .1t/kl    Cr10000/ton
             Less than 100 tons   .05t/kl   Cr2200/ton
             Less than 100000tons .02t/kl   Cr1300/ton
             Over 100000tons      .01t/kl   Cr600/ton
        
           The following sections remain the same
           5:Craft Configuration and Streamlining
           6:Planetoid Configurations
           7:Armor
           8:Minimum Armor
           9:Armor
           10:Weight and Price
           11:Open Vehicle
           12:Vehicle Cupola
           13:Hull Totals
        
        2: POWER SUPPLY
        
        This section temporarily remains the same, except that the 
        consumption of radioactives in a fission reactor is given per 
        month, not per hour.
        
        3: LOCOMOTION
        
           1:Locomotion type: Remains the same
           2:Jump Drive capacity Remains the same
        
           3:Jump Units Required:
        
           Jump Number          1   2   3   4   5   6
           Percentage of Ship   2   3   4   5   6   7
        
           Multiply the percentage above by the volume of the ship.  This 
           gives your drive volume in kiloliters.  Each kiloliter of
           drive weighs 2 tons, and costs Cr222,222  (*Suggest roundoff 
           to 220000*)
        
           4: Jump Fuel Volume
        
           Multiply the volume of the drive by 5 to determine the 
           quantity of fuel required to make one jump at TL9-TL16.
        
        ****************************************************************
        I'm not going to worry about non-imperial ultra-tech just now.
        ****************************************************************
        
           5: Maneuver Drive: Section deleted
        
           6: Thrust Based Suspension
                                  ----Per ton of Thrust---- Min
           TL  Type               Power Volume Weight Price Volume
           7 Air Cushion          0.10   0.20   0.30  30000  0.010
           9 Standard Grav        0.10   0.02   0.04   2000  0.020
           9 High Volume Grav     0.10   0.02   0.04    770  5.400
           10 Low Power H-Grav    0.02   0.05   0.03  25000  0.020 
           11 Thrusters           0.11   0.02   0.05   1100  5.400
           12 Low Power L-Grav    0.01   0.03   0.02 300000  0.003  
        
           7: Contact Based Suspension : No Change
           8: Contact Based Transmissions : No change
           9: Select Avionics: No change
           10: Compute Locomotion totals
        
        4: COMMUNICATORS : No change
        5: SENSORS AND ELECTRONICS : No change
        6: WEAPONS : No change
        7: SCREENS : No change
        8: BRIDGE
        
           1: Environmental Controls: No change  ***(Yet)***
           2: Control Points:  Do not figure control points on hull.  
           Only figure control points based on Power Supply, Locomotion, 
           Communications, Sensors, Weapons, Screens, and Environmental 
           Control.
        
        ****************************************************************
        RATIONALE:  As it now stands, two vehicles, such as tanks, that
        differ only in their weight of armor require differing quantities
        of control points.  Since most vehicle hulls (aircraft are an
        exception) don't do much but sit there, it doesn't seem like it
        should be necessary to use controls on them.  I realize that 
        certain things are included in hull controls, like hood and trunk
        releases on your car, but it seems negligible.  In almost any 
        vehicle that is not extremely heavily armored, the contribution 
        to the total number of control points by the hull is negligible 
        anyway.
        ****************************************************************
        
           3: Computers: Remains the same
           4: Control Panel Units: Remains the same, except add new rule:
           If the total number of control points needed is less than 
           0.05, no control panel units need be installed.  ***(There, 
           now you can do a skateboard)***
        
           5: Special Control Panel add-ons : Remains the same
           6: Electronic circuit protection: Remains the same
           7: Compute Controls totals: Remains the same
        
        9: ACCOMMODATIONS
        
           1: Basic Crew Complement: remains the same
           2: Vehicle and Small Craft Crew: remains the same
           3: Reduced Vehicle Gunners:
        
                   Alter formula to X=(C*S)/W
        
        ****************************************************************
        The Text in this section has always implied that this sort of 
        formula is correct (i.e. it should be advantageous to have more 
        sensors.)
        ****************************************************************
        
           4: Supplanted Vehicle Commander
        
                  Alter Formula to X=(T/S)/C
        
           5: Special Vehicle Considerations: remains the same
           6: Vehicle Crew Accommodations:
        
              Access      Vol   Wt   Price
              Open         0   0.08   50   
              None         1   0.1    100
              Cramped      2   0.1    100
              Adequate     3   0.1    100
              Roomy        4   0.1    100
        
        ****************************************************************
        This table now accounts for seating arrangements on tiny vehicles
        such as motorcycles, and adds the weight of the passenger into 
        the seat, which has a substantial impact on very light vehicles,
        but little impact on anything larger than a golf cart.
        ****************************************************************
        
           7: Starship and Spacecraft Crews
        
              Bridge Crew: No change
              Engineering Crew: No change
              Maintenance Crew: H/C
              Gunners: No change
              Flight Crew: No change
              Ship's Troops: Any number chosen by the designer
              Command Crew: Cc=Total crew/6. If over 10, then=10+Cc/10
              Stewards: 1 per 8 high passengers
              Frozen Watch: No change
              Medical Crew: No change
        
        ****************************************************************
        As the rules currently exist, I think the quantity of command 
        crew is vastly inflated, which is why I reduce it like the bridge 
        crew.  Most of the really bad inflation comes in when you have 
        120 or 150 marines on board, and I usually figure that if I have 
        just decided that there are 150 marines, that includes their 
        officers and admin personnel.  I also don't see the need to add 
        stewards to the crew when there is a fair amount of slop in the 
        numbers already.  To provide personal service to high paying 
        passengers, yes.  To wait on the crew, no.  
        ****************************************************************
        
        10: FUEL : No change at present
        
        
        DESIGN EVALUATION
        
        This section can be retained as is, with the following excep-
        tions.  
        
        Damage:  Calculate based on weight, not volume.  Also figure in 
        the factor of ten for personal combat rules to allow more differ-
        entiation of vehicles at lower sizes.  So new hull values become 
        Weight/1.5 (inoperative) and Weight*1.7 (Destroyed).  Values for 
        power plant and locomotion are figured as before, on a percentage 
        of the weight rather than the volume.
        
        For space faring craft, normal acceleration now becomes 
        thrust/weight.  If this value is less than one, the craft cannot 
        lift off from a standard gravity planet. For operations near a 
        planetary surface, figure speed of spacecraft based on 
        (thrust/weight)-1 to account for power required to maintain lift.
        Agility is equal to the acceleration available after all other 
        systems have been powered.
        
        ---------------------------------------------------------------
        DRAFT FIXED WING AIRCRAFT DESIGN SEQUENCE
        May be used with the suggestions above or separately
        _______________________________________________________________
        1: Determine size of aircraft in displacement tons
           Volume=13.5kl/displacement ton
        (or designate it in kl if you prefer)
        ---------------------------------------------------------------
        2: Choose Airframe type
                       Weight Price  Min     Max         Equiv
                       Mult   Mult   Speed   Speed  Eff  Armor
        Simple         x0.2   x5     150     300    .85   0
        Fast Subsonic  x1     x10    160     800    .90   0
        Transonic      x2     x15    180    1100    .95   1
        Supersonic     x4     x20    280    2800   1.00   2
        Hypersonic     x6     x50    350    5000   1.00   3
        
        Multiply base hull weight and cost of chosen hull volume by the 
        factors given above to get total cost and weight of hull.  Armor 
        of hull is given.
        
          Airframe Enhancements
                                       Price
                               Weight  Multiplier
                     STOL      0.05     x1.3
                     VTOL      0.10     x1.5
                     Seaplane  0.05     x1.25
                     Reentry   0.10     x5.0
        
           Weight is in tons per kl of aircraft volume.  Price multipl 
        applies to the entire airframe cost.
        
        Maximum Lift of airframe hull in tons=volume in kl *1.35
        
        If total weight of aircraft plus external stores is greater than 
        maximum lift, or calculated airspeed not at least minimum for 
        airframe type, aircraft may not take off.
        _______________________________________________________________
        
        3: Choose power plant from Referee's Manual
           Fission and fusion not available for aircraft
        
        Choose Thrust Agency from table below
        
        TL  Type               Thrust   Fuel   Cost  Airframe
        5  Basic Prop             8      2      5    Fast Sub
        6  High Perf Prop        16      3     10    Fast Sub
        6  High Perf Turboprop   25      5     20    Fast Sub
        6  High Perf Turbojet    30      9     30    Supersonic
        6  Basic ramjet          50     40     50    Hypersonic
        6  High Perf Ramjet      65     50     60    Hypersonic
        6  Basic Rocket          50     80     50    Hypersonic
        6  High Perf Rocket      65    100     60    Hypersonic
        7  Basic turboprop       20      4     15    Fast Sub
        7  Basic Turbojet        25     6.5    25    Supersonic
        7  Basic Turbofan        30      7     35    Supersonic
        7  High Perf Turbofan    35      8     40    Supersonic
        8  High Bypass Turbofan  21      4     12.5  Supersonic
        
        Thrust= MW of powerplant output (-MW used as power for compo-
        nents) * Thrust factor above
        Fuel Consumption= Normal fuel consumption of chosen power plant * 
        Fuel factor above
        Cost=Normal Cost of powerplant * Cost factor above
        ---------------------------------------------------------------
        4: Pick armament from tables in COACC.  Guns, bomb bays and 
        turrets count against interior volume fo the craft.  External 
        mounting points do not, except that plumbed hardpoints require 
        0.01kl internal each.
        ---------------------------------------------------------------
        5: Acoommodations and life support as per Referee's manual.  
        Crewmen may be given "no access" seats.  Passengers require a 
        minimum of "cramped".  Life support generally only applies to the 
        volume occupied by the crew, but may be extended to cover the 
        bomb bays and cargo areas if it is considered desirable to have 
        access to these during fl;ight.
        ---------------------------------------------------------------
        6:  Controls are installed as per the referee's manual.  Control 
        points based on hull cost should be included.
        ---------------------------------------------------------------
        7: Evaluate SPeed as per COACC.  Agility formula for aircraft 
        (and grav vheicles) is forthcoming.  Damage equals clean 
        weight/1.5 (inoperative), and Clean weight*1.7 (destroyed).  This 
        is in keeping with the revised design rules.
        ---------------------------------------------------------------
        




-------- TML Message #1881 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1881
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: deck plans
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 90 11:13:35 GMT

James T Perkins <jamesp@metolius.WR> writes:
>					as a case in point, have you
> ever done a deck plan of a Scout-shaped ship? With such a shape, it
> doesn't translate real well to paper (how big a triangle do I draw to
> map deck 1? deck 2? Heck, I'll make a rough guess :-).

I've gone one better, I've made a model of a scout ship, with a removeable
top, and lots of internal detail.  It's based on the deck plans GDW put
out in the old Traveller supplement 7, "Traders and Gunboats" - the same
plan also appeared in the introductory adventure which came with the
De Luxe boxed set.  I had to add in a few things, such as the power plant
and the computer!  I also rearranged the middle section, after I found
that in the wedge-shaped hull, the forward staterooms were only suitable
for dwarves who didn't get claustrophobia - the ceiling and deck came
together.  What I did was turn the middle section round, so the crew
common area is directly behind the bridge.  The ceiling and deck still
come together, but there's a large quarter-circular chair or sofa in the
forward port corner, and a game console with seats in the forward starboard
quarter, so the higher floor doesn't matter - it's part of the seat.  I also
moved the cargo bay, because where they had it, there wasn't enough height
to allow 3 tons.  Unless, that is, I was to make it long, broad and low,
which wouldn't make it useful for many types of cargo.  Besides, I wanted
that place for the forward undercarriage leg.  The ship has reaction drives,
so nyah to all you reactionless fans! :-)  It looks better with exhaust
nozzles, anyway.  I also put in several small thrusters for manoevering.
As for fuel - anywhere I haven't put something else is fuel space.


- - -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

-------- End of TML Messages --------


-------- TML Message #1882 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1882
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Just how low IS low recoil?
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 90 13:45:01 GMT

Mark F. Cook <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.COM>
> In TML note 1856, Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk> writes:
> > 
> > Time for some number crunching.  First, a correction to the above.  It's
> > momentum, not energy, that Newton's 3rd law deals with.
> 
> You're picking nits, Adrian.  Assume the following symbols:
>         m = mass of the gauss needle
>         a = acceleration of the needle at the barrel mouth
>         M = mass of the gauss rifle
>         A = acceleration of the rifle in the opposite direction
	v = velocity of the gauss needle
	V = velocity of the rifle
> If ma=F->, then MA=<-F, right?  By definition, "Momentum" is the magnitude
> of F, without the vector component (staight out of Halliday & Resnick's
> "Fundanemtals of Physics").

Either you've misread "Fundamentals of Physics", or Halliday & Resnick are
wrong, or the universe has changed since I learnt physics.  Momentum is a
vector.  That's how momentum is conserved.  Before firing, momentum of rifle
= momentum of needle = 0.  After firing, momentum of rifle = MV, momentum of
needle = mv, MV = -mv, so MV + mv = 0.

Force is also a vector.  It's rate of change of momentum.  If MV = -mv at any
time up to when the needle leaves the barrel, and MV and mv have had the same
amount of time in which to change, then F = -f.

> >                                                          Figures for
> > Traveller assault rifle and gauss rifle come from Book 4; figures for M-16
> > assault rifle come from "The Armory" by Kevin Dockery, in brackets in the
> > assault rifle part for comparison.

(Lots of figures deleted; you've seen them twice before, and they've served
their purpose.)

> These values are slightly off (you've listed the UNLOADED wt. of the M-16
> and the slug velocity is a little low for a std. DoD issue M193 ball round),
> but I accept your point.

Those values were taken straight from the book, and the weight I quoted was
for a M-16 with a 30-round magazine.  Don't blame me if Kevin Dockery got 
them wrong; give us the right figures!

> > =>    A gauss rifle is no more a low recoil weapon than an assault rifle.
> 
> Let's qualify that: it's no more low recoil that a 5.56mm assault rifle.
> I don't argue this, ever.  The flaw in your argument is assuming that the
> 5.56mm assault rifle IS NOT ALSO A LOW RECOIL WEAPON.

So in TDR, put gauss rifles and 5mm assault rifles in the same recoil class.

> If compare the M-16 to a "real" assault rifle (my definition of "real";
> you're mileage may vary), like the 7.62mm ARM/AR Galil, there's a noticable
> difference.
> ...
>         Velocity of rifle = 2.04 m/s
> This is about 130% that of the gauss rifle and the MT Player's Manual refers
> to this type of weapon as "Med. Recoil" (see the entry "Assault Rifle (7mm)
> on pg. 76).
> 
> Let's compare the momentum of the 5.56mm slug to a different, but popular,
> American round: the std. .22 Long Rifle round.
> ...
>         Velocity of rifle = 0.5 m/s.
> Now, that's only about 37% of the M-16, and about 33% of the gauss rifle.
> (I guess that makes it a "No Recoil" weapon.) :-)
> ...
>		      The 5.56mm M-16 is about in the middle, as is the
> gauss rifle (although tending slightly towards the higher end).  This
> pretty definitely puts both of them in the "Low Recoil" catagory, at
> least by MT combat standards.

So, 5mm assault rifles and gauss rifles are low recoil; 7mm assault rifles
are medium recoil; 5mm pistols are very low recoil.  If anyone is really
interested, I'll do similar sums for 9mm pistols, 7mm bolt-action rifles,
and SMG's.

> One last point, the MT Imperial Encyclopedia (pg. 71) states that standard
> equipment for the gauss rifle includes gyrostabilization.  If that addition
> doesn't make it "Low Recoil", then I don't know what does.

Doesn't the ACR also have that?  Is the ACR also low recoil?

- - -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

-------- TML Message #1883 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1883
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: TDR reviewers, drives, etc.
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 90 14:04:46 GMT

Vote For NoneOfTheAbove Write In Candidate 27-Nov-1990 1032 <baranski@meridn.enet.dec.COM> writes:
> RE: TDR rules categories
> 
> What's the chances of varying TL pieces of equipment actually working together?
> In one of the Star Wars books, the Falcon's control system gets shot up, so Han
> Solo cobbles together a 'fluidics' control system;  I thought it was laughable!
This depends on what the equipment is.  I can imagine using TL3 sails to propel
a TL9 water ship in an emergency (a lot of them, though!) but I have trouble
using pieces from one TL 7 computer in another TL 7 computer.  Making a TL 8
computer talk to a TL 7 printer is feasible, as long as the TL 8 computer is
not an IBM PC - making that talk to anything is a serious problem!

> RE: TDR drives
> 
> In general, Traveller ships seem to have two or three types of drives: jump
> drives, and maneuver drives, and perhaps gravitic drives.  The Jump drive is
> used for interstellar travel, the maneuver drives are used for interplanetary
> travel, and the gravitics drives are used to land the ship without damaging
> the real estate.

Nice summary, and I agree with every word.

>						Are there other ways to land
> ships?  Are there reaction drives that are not destructive?  Some scenarios
> have space ports have gravitic landing platforms, and scorched earth
> wilderness landings.  I kind of like that.

Reaction drives are bound to be destructive.  It's all down to Newton's 3rd
law.  Without doing sums, force pushing ship up = force pushing ground down.
If mass of ship = huge, force pushing ship up = lots, so force pushing ground
down = lots, so being under the ship isn't a good idea.  Gravitic landing
platforms - you mean a big repulsor that lets the ship down gently without
the ship doing anything?  Nice idea, and I expect the ship gets charged some
CR for it.

> If you have a gravitic landing drive, perhaps it's combined with the shipboard
> gravity equipment, so that it's essentially free?  In any case, I'd like to be
> able to design ships without gravity equipment.

And at TL <8, you have to.  Which is why the Shuttle has a big, hard launch
pad.

> I definitely don't like the idea of the maneuver drives being (anti)gravity
> drives.  In my mind an antigravity drive has to have a nearby mass to work
> against, and I question if antigrav vehicles should work further in space then
> low orbit.  I'm sure there are ways to explain it away, such that the gravity
> drive generates a gravity field, and the ship falls toward it, but for some
> reason it goes against my grain.

This was discussed on rec.arts.sf-lovers some time ago.  It's about as likely
as making the ship out of iron and fixing a big magnet to its nose.  Either
it has a reaction (the gravity well pulls the ship towards it, and the
generator pushes the ship the other way) or it doesn't, it's a reactionless
drive, and I'm tempted to post my proof that reactionless drives can't work.

> I like the idea of maneuver drives being reaction drives.  Traditionally
> spacecraft have always had some kind of jets or exhaust, even the highest TL,
> and I don't want to change that.  However, it seems that the physics doesn't
> work, if I'm following the TML discussion correctly.

The sums don't work.  The physics do, or the Space Shuttle wouldn't get off
the ground.

- - -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

-------- TML Message #1884 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1884
Date:     Thu, 29 Nov 90 15:15:56 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Designs by Scott Kellogg

I don't know what the overall opinion of the list was, but I'd like to see
the latest batch of Scott's designs.  Can you send them direct?  I can
take as big a message as you can send (or so I'm told by a friend who is
a sysop here.)

Rob Dean


(Sorry to post this to the list...but I can't get a message through the normal 
route to USENET.  Hope you see this, Steve.)

-------- TML Message #1885 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1885
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.COM>
Subject: TDR SIGs
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 90 16:56:35 PST

For those of you who don't recognize the acronym, SIG stands for "Special
Interest Group".  TDR is building up steam and we currently have 12 SIGs
forming.  Two new catagories have been added to the original TDR list:
World Building and Equipment.  Of all the catagories, only the "Task Rules"
catagory has generated no interest.  As we all might have suspected, the
MT concept of Task rolls seems to be one of the more or less universally
approved-of mechanisms in the game, or at least one that one feels is
bad enough to require change. :-)

The current list of catagories is as follows:

    1) Character Generation
    2) Character Classes
    3) Character Skills
    4) Combat
    5) Medical
    6) Physics
    7) Task Rules
    8) Trade & Commerce
    9) Vehicle Design
   10) Vehicle Lists
   11) Weapons
   12) World Building Rules
   13) New Equipment

Anyway, here's the elm aliases list I use of TDR contributors signed up
so far.  If your name is on the list in a catagory you're not interested
in, let me know and I'll remove it.  If you'd like to join a SIG, let
me know and we'll add you.  Obviously, we're hoping for lots of those.

Later,

        - Mark F. Cook (TDR Archivist)

 -----------8<-------------8<-------------8<-------------8<-------------8<----

###########################
###TDR Contributor List ###
###########################
bertil   = Bertil Jonell          = d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
burton   = Burton Choinski        = choinski@s35.Prime.com
dow      = W. Dow Rieder          = wr0k+@andrew.cmu.edu
erics    = Eric Sergienko         = s94sergienko%usuhsb.bitnet@cunyvm.cuny.edu
fellows  = Steven B. Fellows      = sfellows@slate.mines.colorado.edu
gwh      = george william herbert = gwh@ocf.berkeley.edu
hayes    = Tony L. Hayes          = al646@cleveland.freenet.edu
iain     = Iain Fogg              = iain@batserver.cs.uq.oz.au
kim      = Ted Kim                = tek@lanai.cs.ucla.edu
markc    = Mark F. Cook           = markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
mcgrew   = Charles McGrew         = mcgrew@topaz.rutgers.edu
metlay   = Metlay                 = metlay@vms.cis.pitt.edu
opperman = Roger Opperman         = oppr@cardiac-ra.swmed.utexas.edu
pauli    = Paul Dale              = grue@batserver.cs.uq.oz.au
pool     = Robert P Poole         = tarquin@athena.mit.edu
rigney   = Carl Rigney            = cdr@amd.com
salamon  = Andrew Salamon         = salamon%sdbio2@ucsd.edu
sylvain  = Nick Sylvain           = npsylv%wmvm1@vtvm2.cc.vt.edu

############################
#  1) Character Generation #
############################
TDR_char_gen = = sylvain, iain, erics, rigney, burton, poole

#########################
#  2) Character Classes #
#########################
TDR_char_classes = = poole, salamon

########################
#  3) Character Skills #
########################
TDR_char_skills = = opperman, erics, metlay, burton

##############
#  4) Combat #
##############
TDR_combat = = bertil, rigney, opperman, iain, markc, hayes

###############
#  5) Medical #
###############
TDR_medical = = sylvain, erics, markc

###############
#  6) Physics #
###############
TDR_physics = = gwh, kim, hayes, poole

##################
#  7) Task Rules #
##################

########################
#  8) Trade & Commerce #
########################
TDR_trade = = fellows, dow, mcgrew, kim, hayes, metlay, rigney

######################
#  9) Vehicle Design #
######################
TDR_vehicle = = gwh, pauli, dow, kim, burton, rsdean

#####################
# 10) Vehicle Lists #
#####################
TDR_veh_list = = gwh, pauli, rsdean

###############
# 11) Weapons #
###############
TDR_weapons = = opperman, iain, markc, hayes, metlay

############################
# 12) World Building Rules #
############################
TDR_world = = rigney, burton

#####################
# 13) New Equipment #
#####################
TDR_equip = = erics, markc, metlay

-------- TML Message #1886 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1886
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.COM>
Subject: Recoil: an Apology
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 90 22:44:39 PST

Well, I have a big-time apology to make to Adrian.  When I screw up, I
don't fool around.  Virtually every argument I presented in my earlier
note (Subject 1859) was flawed.  Sorry about that, fella.  Next time,
I'll make sure I pick a shoe of a different flavor before I eat it. :-)

To recap:

> > You're picking nits, Adrian.  Assume the following symbols:
> >         m = mass of the gauss needle
> >         a = acceleration of the needle at the barrel mouth
> >         M = mass of the gauss rifle
> >         A = acceleration of the rifle in the opposite direction
>       v = velocity of the gauss needle
>       V = velocity of the rifle
> > If ma=F->, then MA=<-F, right?  By definition, "Momentum" is the magnitude
> > of F, without the vector component (staight out of Halliday & Resnick's
> > "Fundanemtals of Physics").
> 
> Either you've misread "Fundamentals of Physics", or Halliday & Resnick are
> wrong, or the universe has changed since I learnt physics.  Momentum is a
> vector.  That's how momentum is conserved.  Before firing, momentum of rifle
> = momentum of needle = 0.  After firing, momentum of rifle = MV, momentum of
> needle = mv, MV = -mv, so MV + mv = 0.
> 
> Force is also a vector.  It's rate of change of momentum.  If MV = -mv at any
> time up to when the needle leaves the barrel, and MV and mv have had the same
> amount of time in which to change, then F = -f.

Well, the correct answer is the obvious one; the universe has changed!
No, seriously, I misread Halliday & Resnick.  I'm sorry.  It's been a
long time since college physics classes (too damn long, obviously).

> > These values are slightly off (you've listed the UNLOADED wt. of the M-16
> > and the slug velocity is a little low for a std. DoD issue M193 ball round),
> > but I accept your point.
> 
> Those values were taken straight from the book, and the weight I quoted was
> for a M-16 with a 30-round magazine.  Don't blame me if Kevin Dockery got 
> them wrong; give us the right figures!

The loaded weight for the M16A1 combat rifle (w/ loaded 30 rnd. clip)
is 3.72 Kg. (see, I said you were close).  The listed weight for the
standard NATO 5.56mm cartridge slug (designated M193 by U.S. Army)
is 56 +/- 2 grains, which translates to 3.629 +/- 0.13 grams.

Now my face is even redder.  I didn't realize that, in your note, the
values on the left were for the MT assault rifle and the values in
parenthesis were for the M-16.  You mentioned something about "brackets"
and I couldn't find any (to an American, these "[]" are brackets), so
I just assumed you'd left something out.  In re-reading your note, I see
that your values are correct (so close to the ones in my references that
quibbles over the difference are pointless).

> > > =>    A gauss rifle is no more a low recoil weapon than an assault rifle.
> > 
> > Let's qualify that: it's no more low recoil that a 5.56mm assault rifle.
> > I don't argue this, ever.  The flaw in your argument is assuming that the
> > 5.56mm assault rifle IS NOT ALSO A LOW RECOIL WEAPON.
> 
> So in TDR, put gauss rifles and 5mm assault rifles in the same recoil class.

We intend to, I promise.

> >                   The 5.56mm M-16 is about in the middle, as is the
> > gauss rifle (although tending slightly towards the higher end).  This
> > pretty definitely puts both of them in the "Low Recoil" catagory, at
> > least by MT combat standards.
> 
> So, 5mm assault rifles and gauss rifles are low recoil; 7mm assault rifles
> are medium recoil; 5mm pistols are very low recoil.  If anyone is really
> interested, I'll do similar sums for 9mm pistols, 7mm bolt-action rifles,
> and SMG's.

Definitely interested.  If we provided data, how many would you be
willing to crank out for us?

> > One last point, the MT Imperial Encyclopedia (pg. 71) states that standard
> > equipment for the gauss rifle includes gyrostabilization.  If that addition
> > doesn't make it "Low Recoil", then I don't know what does.
> 
> Doesn't the ACR also have that?  Is the ACR also low recoil?

Yah, the ACR also has gyros.  Boy, I'm sure consistent.  When I make
mistakes, I make 'em EVERYWHERE. :-)  However, given that the ACR is
a 7mm (and 9mm) weapon, apparently the in-line recoil is sufficient
to put it into the "Medium" range.

Later,

        Mark F. Cook

USMail: User Interface Technical Support
        Hewlett-Packard - Interface Technology Operation
        1000 NE Circle Blvd.  Corvallis, OR 97330

INTERNET: markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
          markc%hpcvss.cv.hp.com@relay.hp.com

-------- TML Message #1887 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1887
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Gyros affecting recoil
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 90 10:15:46 GMT

Mark F. Cook <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.COM> writes:
> 
> Yes AND no, Paul.  You're right that gyros don't absorb any recoil (you'll
> still get kicked in the shoulder just as hard).  But that's not the point.
> >From both a real-life military standpoint AND a RPG standpoint, the
> detrimental effect recoil has on accuracy is barrel climb.  Virtually
> nothing else matters.

I have to disagree again, Mark! :-)

One of the reasons Traveller classes weapons as low, medium and high recoil
is that some people fight in zero-G.  A low recoil weapon (e.g. snub pistol)
is better for use in zero-G than a high-recoil weapon (e.g. PGMP) because
it doesn't send you backwards at great speed into the wall behind you.
There's also the matter of the strength of the person holding the gun, and
the effect the recoil will have on someone who isn't holding it properly.

- - -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

-------- TML Message #1888 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1888
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 90 07:57:57 -0500
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!tnc!m0068@uunet.uu.net
Subject: Ship design from Scott Kellogg 11/27/90

To: uunet!metolius.wr.tek.com!traveller
From: m0068@tnc.UUCP (Stephen D Smith)
Subject: Ship design from Scott Kellogg 11/27/90
Organization: personal mailbox at The Next Challenge
 
Well, three days have passed and no one has objected to posting
more of Scott Kellogg's designs. (In fact there has been no
comment,except for the moderators.) So here is *A* ship design.
I'll keep each posting small, so as not to disturb anyone too much,
and not more than one per day. Again I only get together with Scott
every two or three weeks, so feel free to contact him directly if
speed is important.
 
*********************************************************
I have no access to e-mail so you will not be able to 
reach me very easily and there will be long gaps between
my having access to any comments to any designs or ideas
you might have but I would appreciate it
 
      Scott Kellogg      (703)-836-8352
      1202 S. Washington St. #107
      Alexandria, VA, 22314
*********************************************************
 
Attack Submarine TL8 "Alfa" Class 
 
CraftID:  Attack Submarine, Type SSN, TL8, MCr 87.46709 
Hull:     (225/563) Disp=250, Config=1AF, Armor=41C, 
          Unload=2556.171t, Load=2631t, Dived=3375t, 
          SafeDepth=900m, CrushDepth=1350m 
Power:    (24/31) 462Mw Fission, Dur=2yrs 
Loco:     (46/62) Single Screw, DiveTop=80Kph, DiveCruise=60kph, 
          Surface=36kph, 
Commo:    Radio=Cont*1, Reg*3, RadioJamm=Cont*2 
Sensors:  Active Audio*2, Passive Audio*20, Magnetic Sensor*2, 
          Radiation Sensor*2, Environmental Sensor*2, 
          AllWeatherRADAR=Reg*2, RDF, Image Enhance*2, Passive 
          IR*2, AdvActive IR*2, Headlight*2, Video Camera*2, 
          RadarJamm=Reg*2 
          ActObjScn=Diff    ActObjPin=Diff ActAudScn=Form  
          ActAudPin=Form PasAudScn=Form PasAudPin=Form 
          PasEngScn=Diff 
 
Off:            533mm Torpedo Tubes*6 
                                  Max                     Chance 
                Rnds  Warhead     Range Speed Hit% 
Torpedo C       16    300kg 15km        92kph 65% 
Torpedo C Nuc   2     20kton      15km        65kph 
SS-N-15         2      15kton     37km        2100kph 
The type C is a wire guided torpedo. 
The SS-N-15 is a tube launched missile carried depth charge.  SS- 
N-15 Minimum range is 9km 
 
Def:            DefDM=+4  Clusterguard Anechoic coating, Titanium 
                Hull reduces magnetic signature 
 
Control:  Computer=2fib*3, ElectronicLink=670, Electronic Circuit 
          Protect, 
Accom:    Crew=45, SmallStateroom=7, Bunks=38 Env=Basic Env, Basic 
          is, Extend is, AirLock*2 
Other:    Fuel=.924Kl Fissiles, Mag=30Kl, 20 rds, (2 mines can be 
          carried in place of one torpedo) Telescopicmasts*5, 
          Electronic sensors mounted on masts, Cargo=33.054Kl, 
          ObjSize=Avg, EMlevel=Faint 
 
Remarks:  For those of you who don't know, the 'Alfa' class attack 
sub is featured in 'The Hunt for Red October' as one attacks the 
main characters in the climax of the story.  (Great Book!  
Excellent Film!) 
 
    Here is a question, how well would a densitometer see a 
submarine?  It has roughly the same density as the medium around 
it, and when a densitometer has a penetration of 250 meters, is 
that in vapor, or liquid or solid?  Vacuum and air I would say are 
probably negligible, but what about water? 
 
    This is nearly a pure guess.  I reviewed George Herbert's 
guidelines for sub building but I found that the MegaTrav rules 
just aren't up to building a real submarine unless there is 
something seriously wrong with my calculator.  George suggests that
a sub should be able to safely dive to 10 meters times it's armor 
rating.  Well, while I have no reason to doubt him, it is 
impossible to get the 'Alfa' down to the depths it is supposed to 
be able to reach.  This may be due to the fact that the real thing 
has a titanium hull and MegaTrav does not cover that.  Where the 
numbers don't add up I have deferred to reality.  ie the Alfa is 
said to reach 900 meters safely.  The above should reach only half 
that.  Basically, I used the weight of the sub as my main 
guideline.  She displaces approximately 3375 metric tons dived and 
approx 2630 metric tons surfaced.  Oops, make that 'He' (Russian 
ships are masculine) 
 
    Supposedly, The real sub has a 462MW Fission reactor.  Rob Dean
gave the guidelines for the transmission (2*tracked of same TL w/no
suspension).  George Herbert's formula for submarine speeds gave 
the approximate speed the 'Alfa' is supposed to have. 
 
    The passive sonar array is again a guess, so I threw out a 
number:  10 sensors in an array, 20 for 2 arrays.  For Periscopes 
I used heavy robot arms with double the weight and volume and 
price. 
 
    I got the performance numbers from GDW's Harpoon, and "Modern 
Submarine Warfare" by David Miller and John Jordan, Salamander 
Books '87.  The 'Alfa' has the above listed reactor, speeds, 
weapons and compliment.  All the rest is Scotty playing with 
numbers. 
 
    Torpedo tubes?  Pure speculation but here is what I used:  
Cost=1.5MCr, Power=0.5 MW, Volume=3Kl, Weight=6tons 
Torpedo=1.5Kl. 
    I realize this is full of holes, but for what it's worth, here 
it is.  I would greatfully appreciate any input. 
 
Scott Kellogg 
 
P.S.      Going over this design has made me appreciate just how 
inadequate the design rules are in giving the full feel of a ship.
The rules go down to devices costing tens of credits, tenths of 
liters, hundreds of watts, and tenths of kilograms.  Previously, 
this prompted me to think that if a device isn't listed it just 
ain't there.  When craft cost in units of millions it's easy to 
just say, "Sure!  You must have several airlocks on board."  But 
when you look in the listed craft description there are usually a 
lot of omissions of components you would have taken for granted. 
 
Now I'm more of a mind to take craft descriptions as general 
guidelines, not gospel.
 
 
          Stephen D Smith   USENET: m0068@tnc.UUCP
                            BIX: sdsmith
- - --Name = STEPHEN SMITH  Mailbox # = 68

-------- TML Message #1889 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1889
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 90 07:58:06 -0500
Subject: Ship design from Scott Kellog 11/28/90
From: Stephen D Smith <wrgate.wr.tek.com!tnc!m0068@uunet.uu.net>


Another design from Scott Kellogg.
 
*********************************************************
I have no access to e-mail so you will not be able to 
reach me very easily and there will be long gaps between
my having access to any comments to any designs or ideas
you might have but I would appreciate it
 
      Scott Kellogg      (703)-836-8352
      1202 S. Washington St. #107
      Alexandria, VA, 22314
*********************************************************
 
Heavy Cruiser TL 15 "Atlantic" Class
 
CraftID:  Heavy Cruiser Type CR, TL 15, MCr 76874.71
Hull:     (67500/168750) Disp=75000 Config=4SL, Armor=70G,
          Unload=1737363, Load=1791377.9
Power:    (13050/17400) 2348982 Mw Fusion, Dur=30 @ low power (no
          offensive wpns except BLasers, Agility=0) Combat power
          consumes 2 days reduced fuel per day)
Loco:     (73500/98000), Manuver=5G, (5063/6750) Jump=4, Agility=3
          NOE=190, Cruise=750kph, Top=1000kph,
Commo:    Radio=System*5, Maser=System*5, Meson=System,
          RadioJam=System
Sensors:  EMM, P-EMS=Interstel*3, A-EMS=FarOrb*3,
          Densitometer=1km*3, Neutrino=10kw*3, EMS-Jam=FarOrb
          ActObjScn=Rout          ActObjPin=Rout
          PasObjScn=Rout          PasObjPin=Rout
          PasEnScn=Simp           PasEnPin=Rout
Off:            HPoints=2000
 
          Meson Gun=N0x   Missile=x90     ParticleAcc=x70
          Batt        1                 23                      5
          Bear        1                 30                      6
                BLasers=x09
                Batt        16
                Bear        21
 
Def:            DefDM=+10 Meson Scn-7, NucDamp-9,
          SCaster=x04
          Batt        16
          Bear        21
 
Control:  Computer=9fib*3, LrgHoloDisp=10, HoloHUD=393,
          HoloLink=393, Electronic Circuit Protect
Accom:    Crew=359 5*75 (Command=49, Bridge=23, Engineer=136,
          Gunner=54, Flight=6, Maintain=77, Medic=2, Steward=12)
          Env=Basic Env, Basic is, Extend is, Inertial Comp, Grav
          Plate, Subcraft=50 ton*3
Other:    Magazine=16905kl (149b-r) Battery round=1150 missiles,
          Fuel=563190.6Kl, Scoops, Fuel Pure=72hr, Cargo=2758.4Kl,
          ObjSize=Lrg, EMlevel=Mod
 
Remarks:  "The 'Atlantic' class heavy cruiser is typical of the
Imperial designs for such ships:  a long flattened structure
studded with weaponry, flaring aft for rudimentary control surfaces
useful in fuel skimming.  Well-armed and well-armored, it fulfills
the basic design requirement of meeting the enemy and winning in
battle.
 
    The 'Atlantic' class, however, is fast approaching obsolesence,
and is not the equal of more modern vessels in the Imperium and
neighboring regions.  The slight disadvantage of 5-G acceleration
and agility 5 (sic) are telling in otherwise equal engagements, and
make the class inferior enough to affect strategic judgements
concerning its commitment.
 
    An upgrade program to enhance the class was considered, but
decided against because of cost, although a number of enhanced
prototypes have been reported.
 
    The class of cruiser has lately proven popular with the Navy
for independant missions, especially beyond the Imperial borders. 
Used alone, the ships are capable of a variety of diplomatic and
scientific operations.  Used in squadrons, they provide a useful
show of force or reinforcement for friendly client-states.  The
ship's cargo hold can be used to barrack up to 100 marines for
small commando operations, boarding parties and general ship
defence.
 
    Reportedly, some examples of the 'Atlantic' class have been
fitted with black globe force field generators.  This has not been
confirmed.
 
    Construction:  'Atlantic' class heavy cruisers were produced
by a variety of yards throughout the Imperium, including within the
Spinward Marches.  Ling Standard Products constructed four examples
at Mora/Mora in the period 1020 to 1030.  The last 'Atlantic' to
be produced first flew in 1050 at Deneb.
 
    A total of 794 ships were ultimately produced, of which
approximately 500 remain in service.  Depending on progress in
current ship construction, and on the remain in service.  Depending
on progress in current ship construction, and on the astrographic
region, the 'Atlantic' class heavy cruiser may be considered a
first line or a second line ship.  They are being phased into
second line assignments by the Navy as rapidly as newer vessels can
be obtained.
 
    Transfer:  Approximately sixty examples of the 'Atlantic' class
have been transferred, sold, or disposed of to client states of the
Imperium.  Recipients include several Vargr nations along the
Corridor, Aslan colonial governments allied with or friendly to the
Imperium, and many local human worlds within the Imperium.      -
Supplement 9:  Fighting Ships
 
    The Atlantic figured heavily in an old Traveller's Digest
adventure having to do with stealing a fleet of 'Atlantic's out of
mothballs.
 
Original High Guard Design by Tim Brown, Frank Chadwick & Marc
Miller
Reprinted without permission            (Don't kill me, Homer)
Scott Kellogg
 
 
          Stephen D Smith   USENET: m0068@tnc.UUCP
                            BIX: sdsmith
- - --Name = STEPHEN SMITH  Mailbox # = 68

-------- TML Message #1890 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1890
Date:     Fri, 30 Nov 90 9:23:15 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Robot Design Comment

Bertil writes:

> Subject: (1874) Re: (1868)  Robot Design Format

>  One thing that IMHO would be nice would be to get the stats for the robot
> ie str, dex, int, edu) preferrably on the "Other:" cathegory since one will
> need the book to compute those. 

     It is actually already there.  The other category included the entry
"Profile=7F83", which is Strength, Dex, Int, and Ed in that order.
Sorry not to be more explicit.

Rob

-------- TML Message #1891 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1891
Date:     Fri, 30 Nov 90 9:30:00 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  What does Recoil Mean?

I have been watching all of the discussion lately over whether or not gauss
weapons are considered "low recoil".  Now, correct me if I am wrong, but last
time I looked, the only thing that low recoil meant IN THE GAME RULES was that
use of the weapon was less likely to destabilize the user in a zero-gee
environment than a medium recoil wepoan.  The recoil category has nothing
to do with accuracy, and is carried over from Striker, where it had to do
with whether or not a unit could fire and move in the same turn.   So I am 
forced to suggest that maybe it really doesn't matter, unless we want to 
ahve recoil factored in to the TDR combat rules as something that DOES affect
accuracy.

Rob (It's just my opinion (-:) Dean


-------- TML Message #1892 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1892
Date:     Fri, 30 Nov 90 9:57:27 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Advanced Character Generation

How many people use the advance character generation rules now?  I though the
updated "quick" rules provided a sufficiency of skills to keep the characters
competitive, and more or less feel that all the extra die rolling in the
advanced systems is a waste of time.  Just an opinion...

Rob Dean


-------- TML Message #1893 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1893
Date:     Fri, 30 Nov 90 9:52:34 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  (1879) Shipping? Common or Rare?

Jim Baranski asks about frequency of shipping in the Traveller universe, and
suggests that it would be similar to the sixteenth century on earth in many
respects. Yes but...

Since I have read more than I care to think about on the subject of trade and
economics from antiquity to the early renaissance (in pursuit of putting
together a working model for use in fantasy and war games), a better analogy
is probably caravan trade.  Sea-borne trade carried a lot of bulk goods over
coastal routes (e.g. Polish grain to France) because of the low expense of
shipping versus land transport.  Caravans were so expensive that only the
highest value luxury goods could be carried along.  Which version of things
we will model our revised economy on depends, as someone pointed out recently,
on how economical starships are to operate.

As far as planetary self-sufficiency goes, the most important factor to consider
is probably population rather than tech level.  If you have a planetary
population in the billions (9+) there is no way, no matter how cheap star travel gets, that they are going to be able to depend on imports for the necessities
of civilization.  Buy high tech weapons from the planet two jumps over, yes.
Import bananas for the wealthy, yes.  Import wheat or iron ore? No.  Planets
with populations of less than 100 million start to resemble, economically,
single nations on present earth, and probably would have export specialties.
I have always figured that a "Non-industrial" planet might still export
small specialty manufactured goods, and the concept of an "agricultural"
planet comletely covered with farms deserves to be relegated to the same scrap
bin for low imagination as "swamp worlds", "desert worlds", and so forth.  The
simplest planetary ecology is not going to be summed up in one word
(except perhaps, "Vacuum world").  Anyway, I'd like to see the trade system
take into account the population as being a major variable in determining the
quantity of trade.  Some examination of the balance of trade issue should be
considered as well.

Now from a gamemaster's standpoint, I'd be interested to know how this all 
translates into an answert to the question "If I walk into a class B starport
on a Pop 7 world jump-2 from its nearest neighbor, how often can I expect to
find a departing starship?".  I tried one time to come up with a little 
estimate of total merhcant ship tonnage in a region, based on an estimate of the
fraction of a planetary Groos Product provided by trade (using Trillion Credit
Squadron), and came up with things like 3-4 thousand merhcant ships of various
sizes plying the Sword Worlds subsector.  Seemed high, but when I built 
navies for the Sword Worlds with TCS/High Guard, Narsil, a Pop 10 world, ended
up with 300 100,000ton battleships, and 800 or 900 supporting ships down to
2000tons in size.  Maybe.  The Traveller Adventure gave one the impression that
ships were pretty common.  Ah well, enough random thoughts on that.

Rob Dean

(Sorry, I'm still suffering from an ear infection and the baby didn't sleep
well last night, so I'm a little scattered this morning.)


-------- TML Message #1894 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1894
Date:     Fri, 30 Nov 90 11:28:31 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Vacuum Resistance

Since I am working on redesigning the vehicle system for TDR, and since it has
been pointed out on the list that a minimum armor of 40 for a spacefaring
craft is ridiculously high, I thought I would take a quick look at the pressure
vessel calculations in my chemical engineering references.  

As two sample calculations, I considered a cylindrical pressure vessel capable
of containing one standard atmosphere of pressure (14.7psi)  <Sorry about the
English units--I'm an engineer>.  I considered it to be made of mild steel,
with no special alloys, etc, giving a yield strnght of approximately 50,000psi.
I also ignored end cap effects.  I decided that a safety factor of 2.5 was 
sufficient, so I put in a value of 20,000psi as the maximum allowable stress
in the skin.  At those conditions, a cylinder 10ft in diameter would need a wall
thickness of less than 0.05 inches, which is less than Traveller armor value
1.  A 100ft diameter cylinder (ship sized) would require a wall thickness
of 0.44 inches, about Traveller armor value, between Traveller armor values 3
and 4.  50,000psi mild steel would be the equivalent of armor type A (soft
steel).

The result of this little investigation would suggest that vacuum resistance is 
not a valid reason to retain an Armor 40 minimum for spacecraft.  Is anyone out
there capable of figuring out how thick a cylinder has to be to support its
own weight at up to 6Gs?  (I've probably got it around here somewhere.)  This
would give us an idea of how much structural strength would be required to
resist acceleration. (assuming that the weights of interior components more or
less included the structural members necessary to brace them...)

Rob Dean


-------- TML Message #1895 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1895
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 90 09:40:16 PST
From: Vote For NoneOfTheAbove Write In Candidate 30-Nov-1990 1232 <baranski@meridn.enet.dec.COM>
Subject: TDR seperate from TML

Mark Cook, has devised TDR mailing lists.  Does this mean that all the TDR work
is going to be done seperate from TML?  Heck, shouldn't everyone in TML be
interested in TDR?  If we take the TDR out of TML, the volume of both will
shrink, and there's a chance one will fall below critical mass.  It's happened
before.

I'd rather see the majority of mail stay in TML.  Sure, I won't save much of
it, but I'll read, reply to anything I feel like, and delete.

Jim Baranski

PS failing that, put me one all the TDR mailing list.

-------- TML Message #1896 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1896
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 90 02:05:32 -0500
From: Mark Gellis <f3w@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
Subject: Weapon damage and ranges

[I re-sent this mail to the list and modified the subject line to be
more meaningful -- James]

While we are on the subject of weapons (i.e., mayhem), I have a subject
I thought might interest people.  One of my biggest problems in designing
a combat system (something I would not wish on my worst enemies...well,
maybe a couple of 'em) is that the system seems to break down in the 
medium range between weapons clearly designed for people and those clearly
designed for vehicles.  If you use a straight multiplication to determine
damage from muzzle energy, etc., you get something that means no one can
survive being hit by a rifle round--true, rifle rounds do produce a lot
of damage, but much of it ends up being wasted...literally, blowing through
the person and on into the air or space behind him.  If you try to use a
curve of some kind, you generally get better results, overall, but you 
always seem to get an realm of vehicles and/or weapons that seem either
overprotected or underpowered.  For example, using my system, a full battle
tank with case-hardened steel armor (most contemporary tanks) has armor
protection up to 200 points (300 in front), and its 50-ton body gives it
about 240 points of "body."  A tac missile (TOW, etc.) generally does
between 300 and 600 points of damage, depending on the type.  Since you
need twice the body of a vehicle to destroy it (the first level is for
disabling it, but not so badly it could not eventually be repaired), this
means you need between 700 and 800 points to utterly destroy it.  Now,
you can get this with a TOW-type missile with a lucky shot (maximum for
the three kinds of weapons, including double damage for very good shots,
are respectively 864, 1152, and 1728 points), but from what I have heard,
the average shot of a TOW should do a tank pretty well. 

Now, of course, it cannot be very good for the player characters inside
the tank who take a couple of hundred points of damage, if they are hit by
what is left of the blast after penetration (which my system tells you to
check for), and there is also the chance that fuel or ammunition will be
hit, and perhaps this is why the TOW is so dangerous, since most of its
damage is in the form of extreme heat.  Perhaps this is what is meant by
"a killed tank"--it does not matter to the crew inside the tank that their
vehicle could eventually be rebuilt, even after a bad hit, if they are
now crispy critters.

Is the system underpowering weapons?  Perhaps...but under the same system,
the average 15-ton fighter aircraft it blown right out of the sky by a single
missile hit, unless it is an enormously unlucky shot.

I have "solved" the problem by adding fudge rules that say the GM can declare
any hit that penetrates the hull of a vehicle to do crippling or killing
damage (which is very useful for getting rid of NPCs once the plot no longer
requires them).  I do not really like this, but it seems to be the best way
to keep my system both fairly realistic and playable.

I was wondering if anyone else had similar problems, suggestions, comments,
etc.

Mark

-------- TML Message #1897 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1897
Date:     Fri, 30 Nov 90 13:42:12 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Look Ma! No Grav!


Jim Baranski asks:

>						Are there other ways to land
> ships?  Are there reaction drives that are not destructive?  Some scenarios
> have space ports have gravitic landing platforms, and scorched earth
> wilderness landings.  I kind of like that.

Well, depending on how you like to do things, you could always configure your 
as a spaceplane, and land with the assistance of wings and an air breathing
engine of some sort, or for that matter, land as a glider.  'Course, you only
get one chance...(-:

Rob Dean

P.S.  There are a number of potentially useful technologies that Traveller's
reliance on grav manipulation overshadows.  Laser launch systems and 
beanstalks are two that spring immediately to mind.


-------- End of TML Messages --------


-------- TML Message #1898 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1898
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 90 10:58:20 PST
From: Vote For NoneOfTheAbove Write In Candidate 30-Nov-1990 1258 <baranski@meridn.enet.dec.COM>
Subject: RE: Shipping

This is a response to Robert Dean's response to me...

He suggests that caravans made a better model for star trading then water
shipping.  He mentioned that sea shipping was quite a bit cheaper then
caravans, especially in bulk.  I agree with him mostly, but I am wondering why
expensive cargos were shipping in caravans then ships?  Why wasn't all shipping
(where possible) done by sea; was there any advantages to shipping by caravans.
Was it substantially quicker, so that expensive cargos could have a quick
turnaround?

Will space trading have a similiar dichotomy?  I can see that in a system
economy, bulk cargos may be shipped on long minimum energy orbits in unmanned
freighters taking years to reach their destination at certain TL.  More
important cargos will be sent on faster conventional ships.  Is a similiar
scenario possible with interstellar trade?  Will this happen regardless of TL?

Rob mentions that population is a big factor in self sufficiency.  I agree that
the important factor is the size of the economy involved, and population is
probably a good measure of this.  I touched on this in mentioning the amount
that a system was developed mattered.  

The population will determine how high a TL a planet can support, and the
amount of trade per population can determine how much TL can be imported.  Can
we put this in the rules?  This way we can describe how well equiped a high
tech, but only just planted colony is; and where the native TL meets the
imported TL on what economic level.

I in general agree that a planet ecology can't literally be summed up in one
word.  non-industrial planets will still export *some* things that only are
made there (for whatever reasons).  An Argicultural world, I would imagine
could  exist only if there is an special argicrop (ie spice) which is only
grown there.  (or else the planet has for some reason decided to stay at a low
TL world where the majority economics is providing for their own *basic* needs
such as food)  The same thing for 'mining' worlds, etc.  Bulk products will be
shipped only if there is something special about the product.

In shipping between planets/systems of different TL, think about shipping
between the US and SA or AF.  There is *very* little technology in some parts
of AF and SA.  This would be even worse in space trade because I don't think
we'd have the massive trading of stuff *to* the US that we have now: bannannas,
coffee, oil, etc.

Let's see... you say that Narsil a 10 billion pop world (or am I off a place?)
had 300 100Kton battleships, etc?  this sounds *very* high to me.  We have,
what, 5 billion on earth here, and we have a couple of orbiters.  granted the
difference in TL is substantial, and I may be off a digit of pop, but I still
think it's high for a planet, even for an entire developed system.  and these
are just militery ships.

I can't imagine how this is economically possible.  what do you suppose is the
maximum population of an earth-like planet, anyway?  surely it goes up with TL.
You can synthesize food, and recycle metals.  How long before you have to
recycle water and air in the same fashion, and the planet becomes a large space
ship???  (wow, what a concept!)

I have a hard time relating to such megatonnage shipping between the stars as a
matter of course.  I more likely expect that the average 5 billion pop planet
is likely to have 1000 1000 ton ships...  maybe a good guideline would be ship
tons equal to the pop for military & commercial ships owned & operated there?
With a variance from nothing to double for some planets?

I remember thinking that there was a lot of usefull economc stuff in TCS, but I
don't remember how realistic it was.

Jim Baranski
Norwich CT

-------- TML Message #1899 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1899
Date:     Fri, 30 Nov 90 15:59:20 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Minimum Structural Strength

I discussed the matter of minimal structural strength with a science fiction
reading mechnical engineer who also subscribes to Aviation Week here at work.

Upon consideration of the factors involved in construction of an actual 
spacecraft, such as pressurization of the interior, probably multiple layers
of external wall, interior bracing provided by floors, exterior bracing
necessary to maintain the separation of the multiple wall layers, potential 
effect of inertial compensators on the whole mess, and so on, I realized that
there would be no simple way to calculate any sort of answer.  However, the
Armor 40 equivalent would appear to be way too high, and something like an 
armor 8 minimum might be more "verisimilitudinous".  (Feel more realistic)

Judging by bits and pieces of things I've run across about the Long Duration
Exposure Facility hauled back from orbit earlier this year, I'd expect that
even a minimally armored structure would last for many years in normal space--
which could probably be ignored for normal gaming purposes.  Now if someone w
wants to suggest that we should put a minimum thickness on starship hulls to
account for resistance to whatever wierd stresses one might experience in
hyperspace, I'll go along with the idea.

Rob Dean

-------- TML Message #1900 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1900
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.COM>
Subject: New TDR SIG members
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 90 12:53:07 PST

I'm pleased to announce that we've got 2 new members for the TDR SIGs.
They are:

        Adrian Hurt  <adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk>
        Andy Coombes <andyc@minster.york.ac.uk>

Andy will be joining the Character Generation SIG.  Adrian will be working
on both the Combat and Weapon SIGs.

Welcome aboard!  It's good to have both of you!

        - Mark F. Cook (TDR Archivist)

-------- TML Message #1901 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1901
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.COM>
Subject: More new SIG members!
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 90 14:10:56 PST

Boy, I guess I'd better start waiting until the end of the day to announce
new TDR SIG members, if they're going to keep rolling in like this!

Jerry Williams (gsw@moss.att.com) and Bill Morrison(wbm@hpuerca.atl.hp.com)
have also joined TDR SIGs.  Jerry and Bill now comprise the entire Task
Rules SIG.  Bill has also joined the Character Skills, Medical, and World
Building SIGs.  If you're a member of one or more of those, remember to
add his address to your group.  BTW, a big "Welcome back!" to Bill, after
his extended absence from the TML.  We're glad you're back!

IMPORTANT: Don't wait for a starting gun from me, or Metlay, or anybody
else.  I'll keep announcing new SIG members to the TML, but it's up to
people that have already joined to get the ball rolling.  Send letters
to the other members of your SIG.  Start arguments.  Pitch out new, radical
ideas.  Get the creative juices flowing.  If you joined a SIG, but don't
know who the other members are, let me know and I'll forward a list of
SIG members.

Let the games begin!!

Later,

        - Mark F. Cook (TDR Archivist)

-------- TML Message #1902 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1902
Date:     Fri, 30 Nov 90 21:21:24 PST
From: Orcinus orca <jokim@jarthur.claremont.edu>
Subject:  Minimum Starship Armor

Here's a possible reason why the minimum ship armor should
be 40 instead of 8 as Robert Dean came up with after glancing
at how LDEF did in five years in orbit.

In the Traveller universe, space is dirtier.  There are
a lot of ships moving around.  There is debris from past
battles.  You didn't think all that sand you threw out
to protect yourself from lasers just disappeared?  There's
bound to be lots of paint, metal, sand, and on and on
floating around just waiting to punch a hole in your hull.

True, your chances of running into a grain of sand or chunk
of metal are still remote, but the probability will be higher
(esp. if you consider a spacecraft lifetime of 50+ years)
and the average damage from a collision will be greater due
to larger particle size.  Minimum design standards would
reflect this.
- - --
John H. Kim
jokim@jarthur.claremont.edu
uunet!jarthur!jokim

-------- TML Message #1903 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1903
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.COM>
Subject: Recoil in zero-G: Part 1
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 90 12:42:47 PST

Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk> writes:

> Mark F. Cook <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.COM> writes:
> > 
> > Yes AND no, Paul.  You're right that gyros don't absorb any recoil (you'll
> > still get kicked in the shoulder just as hard).  But that's not the point.
> > >From both a real-life military standpoint AND a RPG standpoint, the
> > detrimental effect recoil has on accuracy is barrel climb.  Virtually
> > nothing else matters.
> 
> I have to disagree again, Mark! :-)
> 
> One of the reasons Traveller classes weapons as low, medium and high recoil
> is that some people fight in zero-G.  A low recoil weapon (e.g. snub pistol)
> is better for use in zero-G than a high-recoil weapon (e.g. PGMP) because
> it doesn't send you backwards at great speed into the wall behind you.
> There's also the matter of the strength of the person holding the gun, and
> the effect the recoil will have on someone who isn't holding it properly.

You're right, recoil does have a VERY strong effect on a combatant in
zero-G.  My comments (above) were strictly addressing combatants on
a planetary surface, or some other "gravitized" location.  Within
that limitation, I still stand by those statements.  And I still maintain
that gyros do nothing to reduce recoil; they only damp the rotational
effect it has on a weapon.  A weapon that isn't already "Low Recoil"
won't be helped by gyros, if used in zero-G.  The combatant will still
get thrown all over the place.

As for a weak person holding the weapon, or someone holding it improperly,
I doubt that gyros would help either of those folks, either.  A weak
person needs gravitics to reduce the weight of the weapon AND it's
recoil (ala PGMPs).  A person holding the weapon improperly deserves
the broken fingers and/or shoulder-blade. :-)  Again, I suppose
gravitics would help there also.

        Mark F. Cook

USMail: User Interface Technical Support
        Hewlett-Packard - Interface Technology Operation
        1000 NE Circle Blvd.  Corvallis, OR 97330

INTERNET: markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
          markc%hpcvss.cv.hp.com@relay.hp.com

-------- TML Message #1904 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1904
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.COM>
Subject: Recoil in zero-G: Part 2
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 90 12:43:11 PST

In Subject 1891, Robert S. Dean <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil> writes:

> I have been watching all of the discussion lately over whether or not gauss
> weapons are considered "low recoil".  Now, correct me if I am wrong, but last
> time I looked, the only thing that low recoil meant IN THE GAME RULES was that
> use of the weapon was less likely to destabilize the user in a zero-gee
> environment than a medium recoil wepoan.  The recoil category has nothing
> to do with accuracy, and is carried over from Striker, where it had to do
> with whether or not a unit could fire and move in the same turn.   So I am 
> forced to suggest that maybe it really doesn't matter, unless we want to 
> have recoil factored in to the TDR combat rules as something that DOES affect
> accuracy.

In fact, that's EXACTLY what Iain and I are doing.  For the initial pass
of the TDR combat rules, we are not considering the recoil effect of a
weapon on a person in zero-G.  It should be an easy thing to tack on
after the more weighty problems get resolved (like cover and auto-fire,
right, Iain?). :-)  However, in our combat system, recoil has a very
definite effect on ROFs for single shot weapons and on accuracy of
auto-fire weapons.

I'm sure you're right that the recoil factors are given just as reference
for the Ref. in zero-G combat, since they don't appear to have any effect
on the "to hit" or "damage" rolls in current MT combat.

        Mark F. Cook

USMail: User Interface Technical Support
        Hewlett-Packard - Interface Technology Operation
        1000 NE Circle Blvd.  Corvallis, OR 97330

INTERNET: markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
          markc%hpcvss.cv.hp.com@relay.hp.com

-------- TML Message #1905 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1905
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.COM>
Subject: TDR vs. TML
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 90 12:56:14 PST

In Subject 1895, <baranski@meridn.enet.dec.COM> writes:

> Mark Cook, has devised TDR mailing lists.  Does this mean that all the TDR
> work is going to be done seperate from TML?  Heck, shouldn't everyone in TML
> be interested in TDR?  If we take the TDR out of TML, the volume of both will
> shrink, and there's a chance one will fall below critical mass.  It's happened
> before.

Yes, Jim.  TDR work IS going to be done separate from TML.  That's the
whole idea.

We've already seen a fair amount of evidence that not every TML reader
IS interested in TDR.  Also, while lots of interesting ideas get thrown
out on the TML, nothing very concrete every seems to come of it.  With
SIGS, on the other hand, you've got a group of people who are dedicated
to a very specific goal.  You also have a lot less background noise.
By way of example, working separate from the TML, Iain Fogg and I are
almost finished with a first draft of a personal combat system for TDR.
Folks have been bitching about MT combat on the TML for as long as I
can remember, but what rule changes have you seen generated as a result?
(BTW, for the rest of you TDR combat SIG members, it's only a first draft.
Iain and I are going to circulate it in the SIG about the middle of next
week, just as soon as I enter the changes from our last debate.  Then
you all can rip it to shreds.) :-)

Every government and large commercial organization does exactly the
same thing.  You create special committees to work on specific problems.
Then, when they produce a potential solution, you offer it to the
larger group (TML, in this case) for comments and a vote.  That's
exactly what we're doing here.

> I'd rather see the majority of mail stay in TML.  Sure, I won't save
> much of it, but I'll read, reply to anything I feel like, and delete.

This is my point.  I wouldn't mind following the vehicle design debates,
or the trade & commerce discussions.  But I rarely would expect to have
any worthwhile input, and I'd probably only save the final result.  Why
give a lot of people the opportunity to frequently interrupt a group of
focused individuals when those interruptions might seriously slow down
the production of something useful?  If an individual is interested
enough to offer SIGNIFICANT input to a SIG, then they should join it,
not just kibitz.

> PS failing that, put me one all the TDR mailing list.

I won't do that, Jim, and here's why:

They're not mailing lists, per se, since no one is responsible for
making a broadcast (like James does for TML).  It's just to let
each member of a SIG know who else to send to, so as to solicit
feedback (LOTS of feedback).  If you are particularly interested
in one or more of the areas, and feel you have something useful to
contribute, then join a SIG (or SIGs), by all means.  But if you
just want to listen in and occasionally kick out an idea, you're
better off waiting for a draft from the SIG to come out.  The
members of the SIG are better off too.

If it sounds like I'm trying to discourage you, you're partially
right.  We want dedicated, involved people in the SIGs, who plan
to devote an obscene amount of time to producing new rules for TDR.
We're not expecting complete new rule sets overnight, but we would
like to see some tangible results during this presidental administration. :-)

If you'd like to get involved, send me a list of the SIGs you
want to join (not all of them, for heavens sake!) and I'll add
you to them.  I'll also make sure that all the other SIG members
know you've joined.

BTW, for the TML at large, I'm no longer going to announce new
SIG members to the entire readership, since only the current
members of a given SIG need to be advised.  If anyone is interested
in the current membership of a particular TDR SIG, send me a letter
and I'll let you know.

Later,

        - Mark F. Cook (TDR Archivist)

-------- TML Message #1906 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1906
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 90 17:51:55 -0500
Subject: DEsigns from Scott Kellogg 12/1/90
From: Stephen D Smith <wrgate.wr.tek.com!tnc!m0068@uunet.uu.net>


Sorry to dump 2 of Scott's designs in the same TML, but my local
BBS access had problems. The sysop left town and the trailblazer
decided to have a Murphy's Law attack, so nothing got in or out for
5 days. When it was fixed my backlog was sent at once. Here's the
next one.
 
*********************************************************
I have no access to e-mail so you will not be able to 
reach me very easily and there will be long gaps between
my having access to any comments to any designs or ideas
you might have but I would appreciate it
 
      Scott Kellogg      (703)-836-8352
      1202 S. Washington St. #107
      Alexandria, VA, 22314
*********************************************************
 
System Defence Drone TL 15 "Watcher" Class
CraftID:  Drone Type SDD, TL 15, MCr 4.151275
Hull:     (1/2) Disp=.69 Config=1AF, Armor=40G, Unload=10.1926,
          Load=11.40739
Power:    (2/2) 8.5236Mw Fusion, Dur=10/30
Loco:     (2/2) StdGrav=79.8518, NOE=190, MaxAccel=6,
          Cruise=2835kph, Top=3780kph
Commo:    Radio=System*2, Maser=System, RadioJam=System
Sensors:  EMM, P-EMS=Interstel, A-EMS=FarOrb, Densitom=250m,
          Neutrino=10kw, EMS-JAM=FarOrb, ActiveAud, PassiveAud*10,
          Neural=Vlong, HoloRecorder
          ActObjScn=Rout    ActObjPin=Rout
          PasObjScn=Rout    PasObjPin=Rout
          PasEngScn=Simp    PasEngPin=Rout
          ActAudScn=Form    ActAudPin=Form
          PasAudScn=Form    PasAudPin=Form
 
Off:      Internal Bomb Bay, Max=1t or 10 anti-ship missiles
          Fixed Mt. Laser Rifle
          Missile=x02
          Batt        1
Def:      DefDM=+2
 
Control:  Robot Brain, Extensive ECM, Electronic Circuit Protect
Other:    Fuel=3.068Kl, Fuel Scoops, ObjSize=Sm, EMlevel=None
UPP:      xFx66x  (Sufficient intelligence for non expert
           operation)
Skills:   High Data, Full Command
          Ship Tactics-4
          Grav Vehicle-4
          Gunnery-4
          Recon-4
          Communication-4
          Foward Observer-4
          Navigation-2
 
Remarks:  Used by Imperial Navy and Scout forces the 'Watcher'
series is usually deployed from an Air/Raft bay.  Four 'Watcher's
can be stored in a bay.  With its fuel scoops it can spend up to
a year inside a gas giant's atmosphere or submerged in an ocean
before requiring maintenance.
 
    It can operate autonomously or under direction by other forces
in system using its extensive communications and encryption
software as well as its extensive electronic counter measures to
prevent it's being detected or reprogrammed by enemy forces.
 
    The most frightening thing about the 'Watcher' is its patience. 
It can be dropped into an enemy held gas giant and just sit there. 
Its small size makes it extremely difficult to find, making a gas
giant very dangerous to refuel from.  The drone will not attack
until it has either a clear advantage or a high value target in a
bad position, like a battleship in the act of fuel skimming.
 
Scott Kellogg
 
 
Reconnaissance Drone TL 15 "Lurker" Class
 
CraftID:  Recon Drone Type RD, TL 15, MCr 2.213581
Hull:     (1/2) Disp=.5325 Config=1AF, Armor=40G, Unload=8.31612,
          Load=9.494906
Power:    (2/2) 7.0944Mw Fusion, Dur=10/30
Loco:     (2/2) StdGrav=66.465, NOE=190, MaxAccel=6,
          Cruise=2835kph, Top=3780kph
Commo:    Radio=System*2, Maser=System, RadioJam=Cont
Sensors:  EMM, P-EMS=Cont, A-EMS=Cont, Densitom=250m,
          Neutrino=10kw, EMS-JAM=Cont, ActiveAud, PassiveAud*10,
          Neural=Vlong, HoloRecorder
          ActObjScn=Diff    ActObjPin=Diff
          PasObjScn=Rout    PasObjPin=Rout
          PasEngScn=Diff    PasEngPin=Rout
          ActAudScn=Form    ActAudPin=Form
          PasAudScn=Form    PasAudPin=Form
 
Off:      Internal Bomb Bay, Max=1t or 10 anti-ship missiles
          Fixed Mt. Laser Rifle
          Missile=x02
          Batt        1
Def:      DefDM=+2
 
Control:  Robot Brain, Extensive ECM, Electronic Circuit Protect
Other:    Fuel=2.55Kl, Fuel Scoops, ObjSize=Sm, EMlevel=None
UPP:      xFx62x  (Sufficient intelligence for non expert
            operation)
Skills:   High Data, Full Command
          Tactics-1
          Grav Vehicle-1
          Gunnery-1
          Recon-1
          Communication-1
          Foward Observer-1
          Navigation-1
 
Remarks:  A TL 15 smart weapon.  The 'Lurker' is used primarily by
Imperial ground forces.  The Army and Marines use it for patrols,
guard duty, harassment raids as well as systematic search and
destroy missions.  The 'Lurker' never tires.  All it uses is
ordinance.  It emerged late in the Fifth Frontier War were its
tactics were honed.  Typically, the Marines would set one up with
four HEAP cluster bombs and send it to seek out battle dress
troops.
 
    The drone's fuel scoops allow it to remain on patrol for
extended periods provided it has access to water.  Because of it's
endurance, the 'Lurker' inflicted casualties on Zhodani morale and
severely damaged the Vargr offensives.  They could arrive at any
moment with a special delivery package.  Psychologically, it is one
of the worst situations to be hunted by a machine.  It has no
sympathy, no pride, no worries, no hate, no mercy; it sees you only
as a target to be killed.
 
Scott Kellogg
 
          Stephen D Smith   USENET: m0068@tnc.UUCP
                            BIX: sdsmith
- - --Name = STEPHEN SMITH  Mailbox # = 68

-------- TML Message #1907 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1907
Subject: Views from the Ground
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 90 23:06:21 CST
From: Wally Hartshorn <wally@athenanet.COM>

     Here's a problem for y'all to tackle:  Does anyone know of a program
(or at least the necessary formulae for writing such a program) to
determine what the view looks like of an arbitrary solar system from the
surface of one of the bodies within that solar system at a given time?
     For instance, consider the Regina system.  It consists, first of all,
of a trinary star system.  One star is the primary, one star is a brown
dwarf orbiting the primary at close range, and the third is a far companion
orbiting the primary at a range beyond the orbit of the outermost planet.
     In orbit about the primary (and its brown dwarf companion) are 5
planets, including 2 gas giants.  In orbit about the far companion are 4
planets, including 1 gas giant.  Two of the planets orbiting the primary
have satellites, one with 3, the other with 5.  Similarly, two of the
planets orbiting the far companion have satellites, again, one with 3 and
the other with 5.
     Regina is one of the satellites orbiting a large gas giant that orbits
the primary.  So, if you were standing on Regina, looking up into the sky,
what would you see?
     Presumably the other planets wouldn't be visible, at least not as
anything other than points of light.  But what about the other 4 satellites
orbiting the same gas giant which Regina orbits?  How well would they be
visible during the day?  During the night?  What about the gas giant
itself?  How large would it appear from the surface of Regina?  What
about the primary star?  What would it look like at that distance?  Would
it merely be an exceptionally bright star, or would it look more like Sol
does from Terra?  The brown dwarf would presumably be invisible in the
glare of the primary, but what about the far companion?  Furthermore, how
much light does Regina receive during the day?  When the primary disappears
behind the gas giant, as it probably will every Reginan month, the primary
is eclipsed.  How long does that eclipse last?  Presumably far longer than
the eclipses we have here on Terra.  That could be a VERY significant
feature of Reginan life (and covert actions).  And when it is night and the
gas giant is in the sky as a "full planet", how much light is reflected
onto Regina?  Is it a "false day"?  If so, that too would have a
significant effect upon how covert actions are conducted, as there would be
a period of each month in which the cover of darkness doesn't exist.

     I know that there are programs that show the positions of the planets
in our solar system or how the night sky appears at various times, but I
haven't seen anything which allows the user to enter data about an entirely
fictional solar system and then pick a location from which to see the view.
Having a picture of the view would be nice, of course, but all I would
really need would be a text description of the situation.  Any suggestions?

P.S. By the way, I think I'd be interested in helping with any MT GM aid
program writing.  My only problem would be finding enough time to do it,
but count me in for now.

-------- TML Message #1908 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1908
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 90 15:04:23 -0700
From: FELLOWS STEVEN B -5 CR <sfellows@slate.mines.colorado.edu>
Subject: Shipping: Interstellar Trade: Why?

Dean talks about caravans being a good model for space travel and there has
been some conjecture to this.  Also, people have been wondering what would
prompt shipping of goods from other systems.

A few reasons why I think people will be dispersed throughout space, receiving
goods from other planets.  

1)Overpopulation.   The population on planets exceeds whatever TL exists in
the food industry.  Either population control is instituted or people are
forced into space.  One other way would be to import extra food from other
planets.  As we are seeing today, large corporate farms are an extremely
profitable method of food production.  A high scale of automation combined
with a huge amount of working area can provide food for many people at
relatively low cost (which translates to profitable business).

Finding a large amount of land in one area would be easy of the planet had
a low population, or low population in select areas.  Either way, the
number of people on the planet do not exist to make business profitable .

2)The necessary support industry is not available and would be too costly
to transplant.
  Unless you are providing a very basic good you will need support
industries to provide you with your raw materials.  In the same light, the
people who manufacture raw materials need the other industry as customers.
Today, we have an extensively integrated industry, but this has grown from
smaller and smaller manufacturing facilities as the demand increased.
  Raw materials plants today are being constructed to produce a huge amount
of material.  One example is maleic anhydride which is used in a number of
petroleum products (lubricants, paints , etc).  Maleic anhydride is
manufactured from benzene and usually using a vanadium oxide catalyst, but
it always goes to be made in other products.  I read a report about a plant
being contructed to produce a 100 Million tons per year, which will cost
investors about 120 million dollars in three years.
  A plant like this could not be easily built on a remote planet unless the
buyers were already there, or the source (in this case : benzene) could be
easily provided and there were buyers elsewhere.


  One thing I am assuming is that space transport will be a cheap industry.
In the Traveller universe we can see this: there is extensive mining and
manufacturing in space to make the construction of space vessels relatively
cheap.

  Land caravans were used instead of sea transport because of the danger
and thus relatively costly expense of sea transport.  Improved navigation
techniques allowed for faster and relatively safer (less chance of getting
lost) routes.  Also, there were many areas that could not be easily reached
by sea, and would need a land caravan anyway.  People who already had the
resources of a land caravan were used from certain cities, as opposed to
going to theoretically closest city and hoping to get transport.  Improved
transportation techniques and the development of roads changed this too.

  Additionally, once you get a space faring population why would there be
interest in transplanting a whole society and making it self sufficient?
This would be extremely costly and unattractive to everone but the
extremely wealthy (individuals and organizations).

  In conclusion, I think that as a society on a planet gets older and more
populated it will become more and more self-sufficient, but because of its
initial integration with off planet business it will always have trade with
off-planet interests.

Steven B. Fellows
sfellows@sfellows.mines.colorado.edu




-------- TML Message #1909 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1909
Date: 02 Dec 90 17:17:22 EST
From: Leonard Erickson <70465.203@compuserve.COM>
Subject: Maneuver drives

Jim Baranski writes:
>Subject: (1866) TDR reviewers, drives, etc

RE: TDR drives

>I don't like having to have three drives, but they seem to be
>necessary. Assuming that the maneuver drive is a reaction drive, you
>need some other sort of drive to land without destroying the place.
>Are there other ways to land ships?  Are there reaction drives that
>are not destructive?  Some scenarios have space ports have gravitic
>landing platforms, and scorched earth wilderness landings.  I kind of
>like that.

Well, a fusion drive flame will be *very* concentrated. Check any of
the Med Ship stories by Leinster. When landing or taking off
unassisted, the drive flame will cheerfully burn holes in the ground. 
But they'll be *small* holes, compared with the size of the ship.

>I like the idea of maneuver drives being reaction drives.
>Traditionally spacecraft have always had some kind of jets or
>exhaust, even the highest TL, and I don't want to change that.
>However, it seems that the physics doesn't work, if I'm following the
>TML discussion correctly.

No, reaction drives will work just fine. It's just that some people
hear "reaction drive" and think of our current *chemical* rockets. A
fusion rocket uses 1/1500 of the fuel. So they *do have reasonable fuel
requirements, and endurance. I checked the original rules, and a type-S
scout would *still* be able to run it's manuever drive at full throttle
for a week if you assume it is a fusion rocket! Or ships should have
similar endurances.

>There are other possibilities for maneuver drives other then a
>reaction drive or a 'rabbit out of a hat' drive, and I hope we can
>decide on one that fits for TDR maneuver drives...

Excuse me? I know of *no* other alternatives.

Anyway, here are some figures that should put this in perspective.

Using the "standard" figure of 600,000 for the specific impulse of a
fusion drive, a 1000 ton *mass* ship (not 1000 tons displacement, which
is what Traveller uses) would need 864 tons of fuel to run it's drive
at 6 gs for an entire day. Or only 144 tons at 1g. 

Re: unrefined fuel

Please note that since the Pioneer and Voyager missions, the outer
planet are now considered to have atmospheres of impure hydrogen. Ie
hydrogen with methane, ammonia, etc present as *impurities*. The reason
we used to think they were *mostly* methane and ammonia, is that those
are the only components that show up easily on a spectrogram of the
planet taken from Earth.

There's just enough *non* hydrogen in Jupiter's atmosphere to be a
nuisance. I think Neptune and Uranus may actually have moderate
percentages of compounds as atmospheric components at high altitudes, 
but even there, you are still dealing mostly with hydrogen.

Leonard Erickson			70465.203@compuserve.com



-------- TML Message #1910 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1910
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 90 16:21:58 PST
From: Flame Bait <joshua@atherton.COM>
Subject: RPG Table Routines in C


I've just finished some routines to handle tables, such as RPGs use.
I'm going to post them to alt.sources soon, but I'd like a little
"pre testing" just to make sure they come out of the shar files OK.

The routines are designed to write character generation programs, but
should be useful for lots of other RPG type applications.  There are
routines to read in tables, print them, free them, and use them in
several different ways.  In addition there are some dice rolling routines
which take text strings like "2d4+2" or "1d100" and roll them.  The
table routines are designed to be object oriented, so you can add new
types of tables, and new operations on tables fairly easily.
Finally, there are two simple applications, a computer buzzphase generator
and a cyberpunk style name generator.

If you find these routines interesting, then please grab them from my 
archive server and play with them a little in the next week.  Send me email
if there are any problems.  To get the files you must send two seperate 
message to the server.  Both should contain a path command, one should 
have a ``send programs table03a.shar'', and the other ``send programs 
table03b.shar''.  For example, if Saddam Hussen wanted them, his two
email messages would look like this:

path saddam@army.iraq.middle-east.earth
send programs table03a.shar

path saddam@army.iraq.middle-east.earth
send programs table03b.shar

Or something like that.

Joshua Levy (joshua@atherton.com)  (408) 734-9822


-------- TML Message #1911 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1911
Date:     Sun, 2 Dec 90 22:22:23 PST
From: Orcinus orca <jokim@jarthur.claremont.edu>
Subject:  Re:  (1907) Views from the Ground

To generate the position of each star/planet/moon requires
six orbital elements for each object of interest, including
the object you're viewing from.  Furthermore, the formulae
involved, while not horribly complicated, are a pain to solve.
I know, I've done it before.  You'd also need other information
like mass, luminosity/albedo, and on and on to cover the other
points you mentioned.

All this is waaaaaay out of the scope of the Traveller rules.
If you're still seriously considering this and there is no
commercial software currently available, I'd recommend you
get a good book on astrophysics (a background in higher
calculus as about all you need, although more is helpful)
and devote at least a month of your evenings to the problem.

Figuring the size of an object viewed is much much easier.
A little trig and:

                          D
  theta = 2 * ArcTan ( ------- )
                        2 * X
X = distance to object
D = Diameter of object
theta = angular size of disc

And for reference, our sun and moon have a disc about half
a degree or 30 arc minutes across.  You can use this formula
on your car, house, dog, or whatever is convenient to get
an idea of other sizes.
- - --
John H. Kim
jokim@jarthur.claremont.edu
uunet!jarthur!jokim

-------- TML Message #1912 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1912
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Vacuum (and other) resistance
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 90 10:41:26 GMT

Robert S. Dean <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil> writes:
>	A 100ft diameter cylinder (ship sized) would require a wall thickness
> of 0.44 inches, about Traveller armor value, between Traveller armor values 3
> and 4.  50,000psi mild steel would be the equivalent of armor type A (soft
> steel).
> 
> The result of this little investigation would suggest that vacuum resistance is 
> not a valid reason to retain an Armor 40 minimum for spacecraft.  Is anyone out
> there capable of figuring out how thick a cylinder has to be to support its
> own weight at up to 6Gs?

There's another reason for armouring the ship.   Let's take a ship and
accelerate it at 1G for one day.  At the end of the day, its speed is
9.8 * 24 * 60 * 60 = 846720 m/s.  Now let's assume that a small bit of
rock hits it.  Unless it's fairly well armoured, the small bit of rock
will pass through it and its occupants with somewhat greater ease than
a gauss rifle needle would pass through a piece of paper.

- - -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

-------- TML Message #1913 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1913
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Trade
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 90 11:05:30 GMT

Perhaps using a brief trade classification doesn't describe a planet's
economy fully, but it does indicate its tendencies.  Take, for example,
"Industrial" and "Agricultural" worlds.  Agricultural worlds must have
good conditions for whatever food is being grown there - good atmosphere,
sufficient water, for example.  These places produce "real food - not the
stuff you get out of tubes".  Industrial worlds are quite the reverse -
stuff the environment, make things cheaply, and who cares if the result
is pollution on a major scale.  That's why all Industrial worlds have
atmospheres which are at least Tainted, if not outright poisonous.

One thing I haven't seen in Traveller is any equivalent to the old clippers.
Their function was to get tea from China to Britain as fast as possible, to
get the best prices.

- - -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

-------- TML Message #1914 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1914
Date:     Mon, 3 Dec 90 11:00:48 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Nuclear Fuel Consumption

This topic has been touched on breifly before.  I sat down this morning with
Mark's Handbook of Mechanical Engineering (remember that I am a chemical ^H
engineer by training) and read carefully through the section on nuclear power.
Since I have commented on usage rates of nuclear fission fuel in the past, I
felt that I should look things up to see what was really what.  If I am reading
the numbers correctly, and using the density of fuel as given in the referee's
manual, and assuming that we are using this fission pile to generate electricity
by steam turbine, and assuming that we are using fuel enriched to 5% fissionable
material, burning it dwon to 1% fissionable material, and that you achieve a
30% efficiency on conversion of heat released to electrical energy (reasonable),
it would appear that your fuel consumption should be about .0013 kl/year/MW.
My first guess, to make things come out right, was to assume that the number
given, .003 kl/MW was per year, which looks like it wasn't a bad guess.  

This means that in order to keep fusion competitive, we really need to increase
its fuel efficiency by a couple of orders of magnitude.

I was reminded of this when the latest issue of Challenge (#47) came this 
weekend, with two short adventures using low tech level spacecraft designed
per the rules in Challenge #45, and the nuclear fuel outweighed the ion
reaction mass in the ion drive module by a factor of 30 or 40 to 1.

Rob Dean

(So apart from the Armor 40 argument, and the fusion rocket argument, the
ships I have uploaded using Charles Gannon's low-TL space design sequence
have been reasonable.)


-------- End of TML Messages --------


-------- TML Message #1915 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1915
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 90 11:28:36 -0500
From: "T. L. Hayes" <al646@cleveland.freenet.edu>
Subject: Loose Change



My two cents on a variety of things -

"Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil> says:

>to offend anyone.  As you are all aware, the scheduled MegaTraveller robot book
>isn't on any DGP schedule I've seen lately, so anyone wanting to use robots is
>forced to limp along with Book 8.  The following is my attempt to lay out a
>Book 8 robot in a format similar to the current "standard vehicle" format,
>hopefully with enough info that anyone could "reverse engineer" the design if
>necessary.  I did this a while ago, so I *think* that I laid out any components
>in the Referee's Manual Vehicle system according to that system rather than
>Book 8, and revised the Book 8 configuration numbers to match the vehicles.

Personally, I like this format.  It adds uniformity and readability.  I would
like to see more robots.  No offense to vehicle designers but I, at least
for now, have more use/need for robots and small starships (less than
2500 tons).  My players are not interested in military activity and large
starships are out of their reach.

Speaking of scheduled releases, has anyone heard anything about the new
adventure that's coming out (soon?) called "On the Edge" (I think)?  It
set in the Spinward Marches but usable anywhere.  Its due out in '91 and
that's all I've heard so far.

About Trade/shipping:

With respect to Jim Baranski's posts (1869 and 1879) I agree.  It seems to
me that a planet's import/export market will be driven by population,
tech level, and trade classification.  Large populations are needed for the
work force to mine raw materials, to manufacture finished products, to 
grow food/livestock, or to consume finished products and food/livestock.
The tech level will influence the desirability of an item.  Why use TL8
computers if you could get TL15!  The trade classification indicates that
planets speciality or needs.

The comment that all planets will have raw material (unless it has been
used up already as may be the case on an old planet like Terra) is 
generally okay but you can have planets/systems that are low in heavy 
elements.  These systems will not be origin worlds for life (since life
is filled with heavy elements like iron) but may be colonized (why?).
If the system is a second or third generation system (ie was formed very
early in the life of the galaxy) there would be little heavy elements
present and they would be deep in the core of the planet.  Heavy elements
all come from stellar deaths (basically) so early on few stars would have
died so forming systems would be poor in heavy elements.  A planet in this
predicament would probably be poor and have to import *everything*!  On the
other hand, the gas giants of such a system would be very pure.  They 
could be the source of some of the cheapest fuel in the Imperium!

Looking back over what Jim wrote and what I just wrote brings up an
interesting point.  Trade is using *during* the game that means it needs
to be a quick resolution type system.  Your players don't want to sit
around on their hands while you determine what a planet has to offer.
Maybe there should be a simple, reasonable system for routine use or for
players who aren't interested in trade as the main theme for a game and
an advanced, expanded version for times when that is called for kind
of like the starship operators manual.  For the streamlined version
maybe a variation on the MT version or the Classic Traveller version
could be used.  Just make a couple of patches to the most glaring holes.

About the TDR ship design rules by Rob Dean:

>       For space faring craft, normal acceleration now becomes
>       thrust/weight.  If this value is less than one, the craft cannot
>       lift off from a standard gravity planet. For operations near a
>       planetary surface, figure speed of spacecraft based on
>       (thrust/weight)-1 to account for power required to maintain lift.
>       Agility is equal to the acceleration available after all other
>       systems have been powered.

What about Cargo?  Do you mean to imply that some average weight should
be assumed for acceleration calculations or should you recalculate with
each cargo run or ignore cargo?  Otherwise (after a brief once over) it
looks good to me!  I am glad to see that you didn't start over from
scratch but rather fixed the existing system.  I don't want to learn an
entirely new game, I just want some of the holes filled!

Adrian Hurt writes:

>>                                               Are there other ways to land
>> ships?  Are there reaction drives that are not destructive?  Some scenarios
>> have space ports have gravitic landing platforms, and scorched earth
>> wilderness landings.  I kind of like that.
>
>Reaction drives are bound to be destructive.  It's all down to Newton's 3rd
>law.  Without doing sums, force pushing ship up = force pushing ground down.
>If mass of ship = huge, force pushing ship up = lots, so force pushing ground
>down = lots, so being under the ship isn't a good idea.  Gravitic landing
>platforms - you mean a big repulsor that lets the ship down gently without
>the ship doing anything?  Nice idea, and I expect the ship gets charged some
>CR for it.

Two things: First I been looking in the various MT books and have come to
the conclusion that when they say "reactionless" they mean using no
reaction mass or no exhaust.  A variation on anti-gravity technology or 
the like.  Second anti-gravs are reaction drives (they push against gravity)
but aren't destructive (no flatten houses or people when one flys by). 

TLH

- - --
T.L.Hayes                  |
MIT/Lincoln Laboratory     |
Lexington, MA              |

-------- TML Message #1916 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1916
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 90 02:14:26 -0500
From: Mark Gellis <f3w@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
Subject: Re: Trade and Fusion Drives

On the subject of trade, etc., one thing that has always been a failure
for me with sf games is that they mostly ignore the real impact of space
industrialization.  Even if only one percent of a planetary population
likes being in space, what will happen in the long run is that their
children will grow up thinking of living in habitats as natural, so they
will expand into space rather than go back to a planet.  

The resource base is pretty simple.  A fully developed solar system could
have five or ten billion people on a planet, but hundreds of billions living
in habitats near asteroids, around gas giants, or in the cometary halo.

The "geography" of such solar systems would resemble an ocean full of 
archipelagos, hundreds of large groups of habitats, each centered around a
resource base like an asteroid.  Each archipelago might have thousands of
individual habitats (L5-type city-states with anywhere from ten thousand
to ten million people apiece...my own estimates are a low end of 40,000
and a high end of 1,000,000, but you could build larger or smaller and 
get away with it).  Trade in such a society would be limited by the
demands of physics.  Fusion-powered spacecraft will be very cheap once
we get fusion under control (matter-antimatter is more fuel efficient,
but with fusion the fuel is hydrogen, which is very plentiful)...well,
cheap in relative terms, spacecraft will still be expensive, but fusion
drives will be very efficent.  For most ship designs, most of an 
inner solar system (Earth-to-Ceres, etc.) will be a matter of a week
or two of travel (assuming you don't use jump drives for intrasystem
travel) and a few weeks to the outer system (Earth-to-Neptune, etc.)
and several months to several years for parts of the cometary halo.

In other words, sailing ships of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries,
and, to some extent, steamers of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries.
And a society that would resemble, in some ways, Europe, if it were
broken up into physically separate power blocs...or what the world
might be like the centers of culture were as divided as they are now
(Europe, America, China, etc.) but we only had 1800-1900 sailing/steaming
technology for travel.

By the way, I use a figure of 1 million for the Isp for fusion drives 
(about what the Daedelus project people suggested), and 20 million for
matter-antimatter drives (which is a bit more than what Charles Sheffield
suggests, but easier to deal with in games terms than the 18 million he
proposed).  (Much easier to do the numbers this way, and it does not
affect the realism of the game in any significant manner.)  The average
spacecraft in my game world uses 30% of its mass for fuel, which, at 
one gravity, gives it 352,000 seconds of thrust, which means spacecraft
will go to about 1,600 km./sec., and then coast at about one billion km./
week until they are ready to slow down, and then slow down (this leaves
a 10% reserve of fuel for mid-course corrections, etc.)

I will admit to vanity when I say this, but I really like the way I have
worked this out because it means that every single fully developed solar
system (Tech 11 or Tech 12 or more) is an enormously exciting place, with
the equivelent of dozens or even hundreds of worlds in every solar system.
Imagine, fellow GMs, the kind of intrigues you can have, with dozens of
powerful governments and megacorporations vying for influence, vying to
control the lives of half-a-trillion people, and this is what goes on in
every single solar system in your game world.  (And, if you like complex
and paranoia-inducing plots, remember that at this level of complexity,
you have governments and corporations so complex, and with so many levels
in their hierarchy, that different branches will be trying to screw each
other over...)

Enjoy.


-------- TML Message #1917 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1917
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 90 11:59 EDT
From: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Subject: Why Armor-40 is minimal for starships


To the best of NASA's knowledge, the LDEF was never hit by anything larger
than a pinhead in two years of flight orbiting around the Earth. To use
this, and other data from man's limited exploration of his universe so far,
to make guesses at how a Traveller starship must be armored, isn't a good
idea. In my opinion, the 40-minimum should be preserved in any economically
viable ship design, for essentially one reason: high-velocity fragments.

The odds of getting hit by an asteroid larger than a sand grain on a trip
through the Asteroid Belt in our system at relatively low speeds (Voyager
took years to get to Jupiter, you do the math) are infinitesimal. But what
about a ship that plies a thousand different star systems or more for well
over a century, often at near-relativistic speeds? At a rough guess, once
a year or so it'd go through a Trojan point or meteor swarm in a hurry, and
run a very real chance of something fairly big striking fairly fast. And if
you don't think a ten-gram impact getting turned into energy would hurt a 
ship with a 1-inch-thick skin of aluminum alloy plating and honeycomb core
(std. NASA design), think again. The entire starship combat system of another
game I admire intensely, ALBEDO, is based on what happens to a ship if a half
dozen small chunks of metal impact on it at near lightspeed. (In fact, if one
were to follow the economic logic of Dow Rieder's Robot Drone Missile Swarm
system, the MT universe and ALBEDO universe would have identical combat 
strategies!) Starships don't put that much of their cost in hull armor; even
factor-40 bonded superdense is a pittance compared to the computer and drives.
It's good insurance on the part of the manufacturer to see to it that a random
strike won't cripple the ship and kill the crew; so I would say that the 40
rating is not a PHYSICAL requirement for construction, but a LEGAL requirement
for minimum safety that an underwriter would insist on before financing the
ship's construction. You can build an airliner without firefighting equipment
or onboard oxygen or advanced IFR gear. You'll save a bundle. But would you
be able to find a buyer?

Just my two cents' worth. Thanks to Dow Rieder for his input on this.

metlay

PS> TDR will NOT support discussion of topics with a separate mailing list.
As long as what gets talked about here eventually finds its way into real
TDR submissions, then the TML is a good place to discuss these topics: 
whether or not they find their way into TDR is the TDR group's business; 
whether or not they are interesting and stimulating, and encourage thought
and development of our beloved game, is EVERYONE'S business.

-------- TML Message #1918 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1918
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 90 12:04 EDT
From: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Subject: Addendum on my PS to my last post: About TDR discussions


I will not make Mark retract his post about TDR SIGs and internal discussions.
Nor will I retract my statements about discussion on the TML. I believe they
both have their place; TDR SIGs for seriously-committed people who are actively
trying to help hammer out rules, and the TML for discussions among those who
wish to volunteer ideas and so on in a noncommittal way. Registry on a SIG is
a player's statement that he or she is serious about contributing actual 
material; submissions to TDR itself are the end result of this. So we have a
multi-level discussion going on, with no lowering of involvement at the TML
level. How's that sound?

metlay

-------- TML Message #1919 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1919
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 90 13:01:46 -0500
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!tnc!m0068@uunet.uu.net
Subject: Designs from Scott Kellogg 12/2/90

From: m0068@tnc.UUCP (Stephen D Smith)
Organization: personal mailbox at The Next Challenge
 
*********************************************************
I have no access to e-mail so you will not be able to 
reach me very easily and there will be long gaps between
my having access to any comments to any designs or ideas
you might have but I would appreciate it
 
      Scott Kellogg      (703)-836-8352
      1202 S. Washington St. #107
      Alexandria, VA, 22314
*********************************************************
 
Patrol Submarine TL6 "Gato" Class
 
CraftID:  Patrol Submarine, Type SS TL6, MCr 62.32605
Hull:     (225/563) Disp=160, Config=3SL, Armor=9B, Unload=577.09t,
          Load=1645t, Dived=2160t, SafeDepth=90m, CrushDepth=135m
Power:    (3/6) 27 Mw Imp IC, Dur=40/120 Snorkel installed
          (6/12) 18 Mw Battery, Dur=1hr full power, 8hr @ cruise,
          12hr w/no engines
Loco:     (8/15) Twin Screw, DiveTop=17Kph, DiveCruise=6kph,
          SnorkelTop=21kph, SnorkleCruise=16kph, SurfaceTop=36kph,
          SurfaceCruise=27kph,
Commo:    Radio=Reg*2
Sensors:  Active Audio, Passive Audio*10, Environmental Sensor,
          RDF, Headlight*2, Periscopes*2
          ActAudScn=Form    ActAudPin=Form PasAudScn=Form 
          PasAudPin=Form PasEngScn=Form
 
Off:            HPoint=1 (Deck gun mounted on forward deck, HMGs
                on conning tower)
 
                           Pen/           Max         Auto  Dngr
          Ammo   Rds  Attn  Dmg     Range  Tgts  Spc   Sig    ROF
8cm HV  KEAPER   100    28   10  Dist(16)     -    -     M     10
            HE     -    14   12  Dist(16)     -   20     M     10
HMG*2        -  2000   6/3    3  VLong(1.5)   3    -     H     80
 
533mm Torpedo Tubes*10      (6 Forward, 4 Aft)
                                 Max         Chance
                Rnds  Warhead  Range  Speed    Hit%
Torpedo Mk XIV    26    230kg    8km  58kph     40%  (From Harpoon)
 
Def:            DefDM=+2
 
Control:  Computer=Model1, Enhanced Mechanical=8700
Accom:    Crew=80, SmallStateroom=6, Bunks=73 Env=Basic Env, Basic
          is, Extend is, AirLock*3
Other:    Fuel=960Kl Diesel, Forward torpedo Mag=27Kl; 18 rds, Aft
          Torpedo Mag=12Kl; 8 rnds, 80mm Mag=1.4Kl; 100 rnds, HMG
          Mag=60l; 2000 rnds, Cargo=23.95Kl, ObjSize=Avg,
          EMlevel=Faint
 
Remarks:  This is the Fleet Type sub from the Pacific theater of
WWII.  
 
    Don't you hate it when players drop in on your nice little low
tech planet and proceed to loot, kill and maim and you don't have
anything to throw at them?  Just wait till they try to refuel...
 
    Admittedly, it is going to be outclassed by almost any
starship, but consider, most starships primarily rely on
electromagnetic and other sensors meant to find targets either in
air or in vacuum.  I can't think of many spacecraft that have audio
sensors.  A densitometer might find the sub, but remember the sub
is the same density as the water around it, and besides most
civilian spacecraft don't have densitometers either.  Of course if
your players do have accurate sensors you can always throw a wolf
pack at them...  or a battleship...
Ping...
    Ping...
          Ping...
                      "High Speed Screws approaching!"
HeHeHeHeHeHeHe
 
Scott Kellogg
 
    via   Stephen D Smith   USENET: m0068@tnc.UUCP
                            BIX: sdsmith
- - --Name = STEPHEN SMITH  Mailbox # = 68

-------- TML Message #1920 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1920
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 90 13:03:58 -0500
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!tnc!m0068@uunet.uu.net
Subject: Designs from Scott Kellogg 12/3/90

From: m0068@tnc.UUCP (Stephen D Smith)
Organization: personal mailbox at The Next Challenge
 
*********************************************************
I have no access to e-mail so you will not be able to 
reach me very easily and there will be long gaps between
my having access to any comments to any designs or ideas
you might have but I would appreciate it
 
      Scott Kellogg      (703)-836-8352
      1202 S. Washington St. #107
      Alexandria, VA, 22314
*********************************************************
 
Dreadnaught TL 15, "Kokirrak" Class
 
CraftID:  Dreadnaught Type BB, TL 15, MCr 242672.5
Hull:     (180000/450000) Disp=200000 Config=4SL, Armor=76G,
          Unload=5387672, Load=5574778.5
Power:    (32808/43744) 5905422 Mw Fusion, Dur=30 @ low power (no
          offensive wpns except BLasers, Agility=0) Combat power
          consumes 2 days reduced fuel per day)
Loco:     (45900/61200), Manuver=6G, (13500/18000) Jump=4,
          Agility=2 NOE=190, Cruise=750kph, Top=1000kph,
Commo:    Radio=System*30, Maser=System*30, Meson=System,
          RadioJam=System
Sensors:  EMM, P-EMS=Interstel*3, A-EMS=FarOrb*3,
          Densitometer=1km*3, Neutrino=10kw*3, EMS-Jam=FarOrb*3
          ActObjScn=Rout          ActObjPin=Rout
          PasObjScn=Rout          PasObjPin=Rout
          PasEnScn=Simp           PasEnPin=Rout
Off:      HPoints=2000
          Meson Gun=T0x   Missile=x90     ParticleAcc=x70
          Batt        1           33                23
          Bear        1           50                33
          BLasers=x09 FGun=x06
          Batt        33          33
          Bear        50          50
Def:      DefDM=+9 Meson Scn-8, NucDamp-9, Blk Globe-4
          SCaster=x07 Repulsor=x09
          Batt        33          13
          Bear        50          20
Control:  Computer=9fib*3, LrgHoloDisp=20, HoloHUD=1289,
          HoloLink=1289, Electronic Circuit Protect
Accom:    Crew=963 5*200 (Command=132, Bridge=49, Engineer=365,
          Gunner=61, Flight=20, Maintain=297, Medic=7, Steward=32)
          Env=Basic Env, Basic is, Extend is, Inertial Comp, Grav
          Plate, Subcraft=50 ton*10
Other:    Cargo=54029Kl, Magazine=57915Kl, (353b-r) Battery
          round=1650 missiles, Fuel=1321961Kl, Scoops, Fuel
          Pure=72hr, ObjSize=Lrg, EMlevel=Mod
 
Remarks:  "The 'Kokirrak' class dreadnaught is one of the more
common classes of capitol ships in service in the Spinward Marches;
a total of four BatRons of this type serve on permanaent station,
with harbor assignments at Rhylanor, Regina, Jewell, and Mora. 
Generally, one squadron of Kokirraks is dispersed into independant
ships with ancillary escorts.  On patrol, the ships combine
training operations with routine patrols amd reaction operations.
 
    The 'Kokirrak' is a preferred ship for flagship operations due
to its extensive admiral's quarters, which include command and
communications equipment, as well as entertainment chambers.  The
ship is capable of controling a large fleet engagement within a
system, as well as holding its own in battle; the combination of
fleet controller and line-of-battle ship makes it an asset in
nearly any space combat situation.
 
    Troops:  Normally, the 'Kokirrak's do not carry troops.  It is
possible to install modular quarters for up to 2,000 troops
(usually only 1,000 are carried) in the cargo hold.  A squadron of
eight 'Kokirrak's can carry between 8,000 and 16,000 troops or the
equivalent of a reinforced division.
 
    Black Globe Generators:  This class of dreadnaught, when
originally designed and constructed, mounted black globe force
field generators.  Over the years, various ships have suffered
black globe generator failures, and the devices have not been
replaced.  When encountered, there is approximately a 50% chance
that the ship will mount a functioning black globe (factor-4).
 
    The 'Kokirrak's are one of the older classes of dreadnaughts
in Imperial service, and are now being phased out of service. 
Within the last decade, several ships have been disposded of to
other services such as the scouts, and to other governments,
including sector navies and client-states in the Spinward border
regions of the Imperium."   - Supplement 9:  Fighting Ships
 
Original High Guard Design by Tim Brown, Frank Chadwick & Marc
Miller
Reprinted without permission            (No Kill I)
 
Scott Kellogg
 
    via   Stephen D Smith   USENET: m0068@tnc.UUCP
                            BIX: sdsmith
- - --Name = STEPHEN SMITH  Mailbox # = 68

-------- TML Message #1921 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1921
Date:     Mon, 3 Dec 90 12:59:19 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Caravans and Starships

Jim Baranski writes:

> Subject: (1898) RE: Shipping

> This is a response to Robert Dean's response to me...

> He suggests that caravans made a better model for star trading then water
> shipping.  He mentioned that sea shipping was quite a bit cheaper then
> caravans, especially in bulk.  I agree with him mostly, but I am wondering why
> expensive cargos were shipping in caravans then ships?  Why wasn't all shipping
> (where possible) done by sea; was there any advantages to shipping by caravans.
> Was it substantially quicker, so that expensive cargos could have a quick
> turnaround?

I looked back over what I said, and there was one important thing that got 
left out of my remark.  I think that a better analogy for interstellar shipping
than 16th century sea trade would be the pre-15th century caravan trade.  
The critical difference is that by the 16th century you had direct sailing 
routes with these exotic far-off places that provided those goods that you 
were willing to spend enormous amounts of money on, like silk and pepper.  
Ultimately, this decreased the price and made them available to larger 
quantities of people, so that, tea drinking for example, was common in 18th 
Century England despite the fact that every pound of tea was carried thousands
of miles by sea.  A caravan had to make many intermediate stops, as do our 
starships, for the equivalent of refueling.  A sailing ship's cruising radius 
was only limited by the amount of food and fresh water it could carry (and 
even water could be obtained), which meant that voyages of many months (and 
even years) were achievable.  This has a strong effect (I think) on the 
economics of the transportation method.  So a caravan, I think, was more like 
our ships--to make a journey lasting months across a desert (space) you had 
to stop frequently (weekly) at towns and oases (planets and star systems) 
along the way.  A sailing ship would be the functional equivalent of a 
starship that needed no jump fuel.

Rob Dean

-------- TML Message #1922 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1922
Date:     Mon, 3 Dec 90 12:59:44 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Minimum Armor


John H. Kim Writes:

> Subject: (1902)  Minimum Starship Armor

> Here's a possible reason why the minimum ship armor should
> be 40 instead of 8 as Robert Dean came up with after glancing
> at how LDEF did in five years in orbit.

> In the Traveller universe, space is dirtier.  There are
> a lot of ships moving around.  There is debris from past
> battles.  You didn't think all that sand you threw out
> to protect yourself from lasers just disappeared?  There's
> bound to be lots of paint, metal, sand, and on and on
> floating around just waiting to punch a hole in your hull.

> True, your chances of running into a grain of sand or chunk
> of metal are still remote, but the probability will be higher
> (esp. if you consider a spacecraft lifetime of 50+ years)
> and the average damage from a collision will be greater due
> to larger particle size.  Minimum design standards would
> reflect this.

Well, maybe so.  On the other hand, it might well be more economical to 
accept occasional damage and pay for repair costs.  A possible analogy would 
be modern automobile windshields, which could be made of bullet proof glass.  
We don't because the odds of getting a stone chip big enough to require 
replacing the window are small enough that it isn't worthwhile.  It would 
become even less worthwhile if you could patch your windshield for small 
dings, rather than replace it. As far as this applies to TDR and vehicle rule
redesign, I am more interested in the moment in coming up with reasonable
values than I am in trying to rationalize the odd rules that currently exist.

Rob Dean

-------- TML Message #1923 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1923
Date: Mon,  3 Dec 90 13:14:35 -0500 (EST)
From: William Dow Rieder <wr0k+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: (1909) Maneuver drives

Leonard Erickson writes:

>No, reaction drives will work just fine. It's just that some people
>hear "reaction drive" and think of our current *chemical* rockets. A
>fusion rocket uses 1/1500 of the fuel. So they *do have reasonable fuel
>requirements, and endurance. I checked the original rules, and a type-S
>scout would *still* be able to run it's manuever drive at full throttle
>for a week if you assume it is a fusion rocket! Or ships should have
>similar endurances.

Wrong.  I don't have the mass for a scout handy, but it was close to
1 ton per kl = ~1350 tons for the whole ship.  2 G's for a week gives
a net velocity change of  ~12,000 km/sec.  Using the speed of light as an
upper bound for the exhaust velocity we get a minimum mass fraction
of 4% just for reaction mass (totally ignoing energy requirements).  This
gives 54 tons mass needed.  The scout had 20 disp tons of LH2 for the
powerplant and manuver drives = 20 tons mass - not enough.  Check
your math before making specific claims.

					W. Dow Rieder

 	When the only tool you have is a hammer, all your problems
start to look like nails...

-------- TML Message #1924 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1924
Date: Mon,  3 Dec 90 13:25:33 -0500 (EST)
From: William Dow Rieder <wr0k+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: (1902)  Minimum Starship Armor

Here are some serious reasons for starships to have armor 40:
1)  The ship has to be able to cruise through the Van Allen belts of gas
giants without endangering the crew in order to use wilderness refueling.
2)  In-system speeds (at least using the MT manuver drives) can easily
get up to thousands of km/sec, making micrometeorites and other junk
four orders of magnitude more dangerous than when the ship is just
sitting in orbit (KE = 1/2 mv^2).

					W. Dow Rieder

 	When the only tool you have is a hammer, all your problems
start to look like nails...

-------- TML Message #1925 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1925
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 90 14:05:40 PST
From: Vote For NoneOfTheAbove Write In Candidate 03-Dec-1990 1612 <baranski@meridn.enet.dec.COM>
Subject: trade

Date: Sun, 2 Dec 90 15:04:23 -0700
From: FELLOWS STEVEN B -5 CR <sfellows@slate.mines.colorado.edu>
Subject: (1908) Shipping: Interstellar Trade: Why?
 
"A few reasons why I think people will be dispersed throughout space, receiving
goods from other planets."
 
"1)Overpopulation.   'creates a market for food'

The only cure for overpopulation is population control.  Emigration may have
some effect on it, and feeding it only makes it worse.  I really have a hard
time believing that it's economical to feed a planet from another planet as a
matter of course.  You need a *good* reason to have a sizable population on a
planet that can't support it.  It makes much more sense to put the people where
the food is.

I agree with you that Traveller seems to assume that space shipping costs are
negligible, but on the other hand, player traders can make out quite well. This
doesn't match up.  Run some scenarios past yourself.  Say you have a planet
full of people in one system, and a farming planet in another system.  Assume a
reasonable price for the food, and add in the trading cost, and see what you
get.

"2)The necessary support industry is not available and would be too costly
to transplant."

This does happen out of necessity in small colonies or research stations.
But, given the shipping costs in the players guides, I can't see it being
economical to import bulk goods.  small amount of goods will always be traded,
as not much is needed, and it's cheaper to trade for that, but the more that
you need something, the more important it is to produce it locally.

"Land caravans were used instead of sea transport because of the danger and
thus relatively costly expense of sea transport."

Whhhhat?  Caravans are more expensive then sea transport, that's why bulk goods
are sent by sea.

"Additionally, once you get a space faring population why would there be
interest in transplanting a whole society and making it self sufficient? This
would be extremely costly and unattractive to everone but the extremely wealthy
(individuals and organizations)."

I don't know of anyone or any group that wouldn't rather be self sufficient if
it's economically possible.  Again, you seem to assume that transport is
cheaper then development, which I would argue against. 

Jim Baranski

-------- TML Message #1926 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1926
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 90 19:13:28 -0900
From: George William Herbert <gwh@ocf.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: (1899) Minimum Structural Strength


Rob Dean discusses comparing structural strength of modern and Traveller
spacefaring vehicles... I'd like to make a few comments.

Current vehicles are very, very fragile.  As are current airplanes.  Given the
amount of use (and type of use) they are subjected to, a better comparason 
would be with a naval ship than with a Space Shuttle.  A naval ship run 
aground in port simply waits for better tide to get off; were a space shuttle
to land off-field, it would be a $2 billion sculpture.  I can't imagine
that Traveller ships, indended for in excess of twenty years of nearly c
continuous use, would be built anything but very, very strongly.

Also, problems such as atmospheric re-entry heating have to be taken into 
account... without extensive cooling or insulation, all sorts of problems
occur with thin-skinned vehicles.

Besides, if anyone bothers to figure out gas giant skimming loads and such,
i suspect they're going to be um Huge.  [Believe me; one real-world project
I'm working on is a spacecraft that aerobrakes at Jupiter... 8-) ]

- - -george william herbert
gwh@ocf.berkeley.edu

-------- TML Message #1927 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1927
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.COM>
Subject: Pigs,...er...Windshields in Space!!
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 90 22:44:53 PST

In subject (1922) Rob Dean <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil> writes:

> Well, maybe so.  On the other hand, it might well be more economical to 
> accept occasional damage and pay for repair costs.  A possible analogy would 
> be modern automobile windshields, which could be made of bullet proof glass.  
> We don't because the odds of getting a stone chip big enough to require 
> replacing the window are small enough that it isn't worthwhile.  It would 
> become even less worthwhile if you could patch your windshield for small 
> dings, rather than replace it. As far as this applies to TDR and vehicle rule
> redesign, I am more interested in the moment in coming up with reasonable
> values than I am in trying to rationalize the odd rules that currently exist.

On the other hand, everybody MIGHT have bulletproof glass in their windows
if they ran the risk of breaking one and SUFFOCATING before they got to
the next body shop. :-)

Sorry, Rob.  I couldn't resist.

Later,

        - Mark F. Cook (TDR Archivist)

-------- TML Message #1928 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1928
From: "Brent L. Woods" <woodsb@zoo.ecn.purdue.edu>
Subject: Re: (1913) Re:  Interstellar Trade
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 90 5:40:44 EST


 In message 1913, adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt) writes:
 >
 >One thing I haven't seen in Traveller is any equivalent to the old
 >clippers.  Their function was to get tea from China to Britain as fast
 >as possible, to get the best prices.

     Probably due to differing circumstances.  Back in the last century,
there were good economic reasons for having some ships travel from A to
B as quickly as possible while others were able to take more time
reaching their destinations (presumably, things are still that way--I
don't know, since what I know about ocean travel is primarily military).

     In deep space, however...  In one of Larry Niven's Known Space
stories (I *think* it's "Borderland of Sol"--one with Beowulf Shaeffer,
anyway), the protagonist makes the comment that hyperdrive has only
one speed, and *there is never any reason to dawdle in space*.  Human
beings can adapt to a wider range of environments than most people
would think, but vacuum is notoriously low in vitamin content.  ;-)

     The same factors obtain in the Traveller universe.  There are
different distances that individual jump drives can traverse, but as
far as the ship is concerned, they all move at the same speed:  one
jump per week (assuming quick refueling and a need to get somewhere
in a hurry).  Half that if the ship in question wants to spend some
time in port for trading, laying in supplies, performing simple
repairs, and whatnot.

     There *could* be the equivalent of clipper ships, but that form of
travel would be so ruinously expensive (since the ship won't be making
any money along the way) that the cargo had better be *extremely*
valuable (possibly more valuable than I can imagine, and, like Han Solo,
I can imagine a *lot*.  :-) ).

     Actually, now that I think about it a little bit, there *is* (well,
at least *was*) something like a clipper route in the Imperium.  The
IISS operates an _Azhanti_High_Lightning_ class cruiser to do nothing
but carry wine from Earth to Capital for the Emperor's table (I'm told
that tokay is very good, but *really*...).  Note that it takes a *large*
agency of a major government to be able to afford this.

     Now the question becomes "Is there a commodity valuable enough to
justify special multi-jump dedicated shipping?"


- - --
     Brent

INTERNET:  woodsb@gn.ecn.purdue.edu
USNAIL:  2818 S. Sunrise Dr.  /  New Palestine, IN  46163
PHONE:  +1 (317) 861-4844 (voice)


-------- TML Message #1929 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1929
Date:     Tue, 4 Dec 90 9:10:22 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Nuclear Fuel Consumption, Part II

Having splattered the list with my first thoughts on the subject yesterday,
I feel impelled to mention at least one semi-major source of error.  The
nuclear fuel should probably be calculated on the density/weight of
uranium oxide, rahter than metallic uranium.  Even if using metallic uranium,
the Ref's Manual's 25tonnes/kl is absurd, as that is the same as a specific
gravity of 25, or a density of 25g/cc.  Even pure uranium only has a density of 
19, and (without looking it up) I think the oxide must be lower.  I dislike it
when the book makes a mistake like that, on an easy to verify number.  Which 
reminds me, most hydrocarebon fuels should weigh about 0.8tons/kl, rather than
1t/kl.

Rob Dean


-------- TML Message #1930 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1930
Date:     Tue, 4 Dec 90 9:22:17 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Acceleration Calculation

T.L. Hayes writes:

> About the TDR ship design rules by Rob Dean:
> 
> >       For space faring craft, normal acceleration now becomes
> >       thrust/weight.  If this value is less than one, the craft cannot
> >       lift off from a standard gravity planet. For operations near a
> >       planetary surface, figure speed of spacecraft based on
> >       (thrust/weight)-1 to account for power required to maintain lift.
> >       Agility is equal to the acceleration available after all other
> >       systems have been powered.
> 
> What about Cargo?  Do you mean to imply that some average weight should
> be assumed for acceleration calculations or should you recalculate with
> each cargo run or ignore cargo?  Otherwise (after a brief once over) it
> looks good to me!  I am glad to see that you didn't start over from
> scratch but rather fixed the existing system.  I don't want to learn an
> entirely new game, I just want some of the holes filled!

You have your choice.  What the game currently does with small vehicle .
performance is to calculate it based on the cargo space being completely filled
with water.  This would give you some sort of approximation.  Personally, I'd
do that, plus calculate an empty accelration in case you need to take off in
a hurry sometime.  I realize that the trade people (are you listening?) will
have to come up with cargo densities if you want to recalculate on the basis 
of each cargo.  You may want to do it...it wouldn't take long, especially
if you have a full load of one commodity.

Rob Dean

(Sorry about the spelling.  This keyboard is way too sensitive, and there is no 
way to adjest it for a heavier touch.)


-------- TML Message #1931 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1931
From: plb@violin.att.COM
Subject: Re: (1913) Re: Interstellar Trade
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 90 9:34:46 EST

Operating System: HP-UX A.B7.00 U
Organization: AT&T-BL, Red Hill System Administration Group (HRSAG)
Location: HR 2C119
Phone: (201) 615-4419
Return-receipt:
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL5]

*| 
*| One thing I haven't seen in Traveller is any equivalent to the old clippers.
*| Their function was to get tea from China to Britain as fast as possible, to
*| get the best prices.
*| 

One of the campaigns I ran several years ago was tailor made for
someone who wanted to run characters that were the equivilant of
the owners of the China Clippers.  I had (thanks to one of my
players) a ship design that became very popular within my campaigns
that was a rough analogy to it.  Unfortunately the breifcase that
the design (and its copies) was in turned up missing one fine day
and I lost a lot of good designs as a result.


- - -- 
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
" Peter L. Berghold  " INTERNET: plb@violin.att.com "+1(908)615-4419   "
" System Adminstrator" BIX     : peteb              """"""""""""""""""""
" AT&T, HRSAG        " DELPHI  : berghold """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

-------- TML Message #1932 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1932
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 90 12:40:49 -0500
From: "T. L. Hayes" <al646@cleveland.freenet.edu>
Subject: Re: Rob Dean's Posts




From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>

>How many people use the advance character generation rules now?  I though the
>updated "quick" rules provided a sufficiency of skills to keep the characters
>competitive, and more or less feel that all the extra die rolling in the
>advanced systems is a waste of time.  Just an opinion...

I agree.  I only use the basic character generator and selected parts from
the advanced sections (such as college and military academys).  I had always
planned to expand slightly the pre-service skills section for the basic
system in a way similar to the college expansion posted a few messages ago.

>As two sample calculations, I considered a cylindrical pressure vessel capable
>of containing one standard atmosphere of pressure (14.7psi)  <Sorry about the
>English units--I'm an engineer>.  I considered it to be made of mild steel,
>with no special alloys, etc, giving a yield strnght of approximately 50,000psi.
>I also ignored end cap effects.  I decided that a safety factor of 2.5 was 
>sufficient, so I put in a value of 20,000psi as the maximum allowable stress
>in the skin. At those conditions, a cylinder 10ft in diameter would need a wall
>thickness of less than 0.05 inches, which is less than Traveller armor value
>1.  A 100ft diameter cylinder (ship sized) would require a wall thickness
>of 0.44 inches, about Traveller armor value, between Traveller armor values 3
>and 4.  50,000psi mild steel would be the equivalent of armor type A (soft
>steel).

I have not designed many ships but I don't see how you go from thickness to 
armor value (or vice versa).  Again, I have not designed but maybe half a
dozen ships but if I understand things correctly a 100 ton ship occupies a
volume of 1350 cubic meters and has a mass of 40 tons.  Multiply by 33 for an 
armor factor of 40 and by 1.25 for soft steel and you get 1650 tons for weight 
(mass).  I believe a minimum surface polygon enclosing the volume listed would 
be a sphere 685.6172 cm in radius.  I don't know the density of steel but the 
specific gravity of iron is about 8 gm/cc (which means the density of steel 
is about the same?).  If you assume a mass of 1,650,000 gms and calculate the
thickness of the skin of the sphere you find it to be 0.0349 cm or about 
0.0137 in.  If the density is greater than 8 gm/cc then the thickness will be
even less.  Somebody check these numbers, you know how bad I am with numbers!
Assuming no miscalculations, wouldn't this coupled with your calculations 
mean that the hulls should have a higher armor rating?

>P.S.  There are a number of potentially useful technologies that Traveller's
>reliance on grav manipulation overshadows.  Laser launch systems and 
>beanstalks are two that spring immediately to mind.

True but these limit ships to civilized, high tech planets.  Anti-grav 
allows the ship to come and go when and where it wants (which is good for
smugglers and the like).

TLH


- - --
T.L.Hayes                  |
MIT/Lincoln Laboratory     |
Lexington, MA              |

-------- End of TML Messages --------


-------- TML Message #1933 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1933
Date:     Tue, 4 Dec 90 12:39:20 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Minimum Armor for Spaceships

I have seen coherent arguments in favor of retaining the spaceship minimum ar-
mor level of 40 in any revised vehicle system.  Permit me to ask a few ques-
tions about how related matters should be handled.  

If we accept that 40 is a "legal" requirement, or a "nice to be safe" engi-
neering standard (and I'll accept either argument as being reasonable), how 
should I handle something like Scott Kellogg's space going fighter planes?  If 
you are part of a planet attempting to declare independence from the Imperium, 
or protect itself from Aslan or Vargr invaders (my Spinward Marches bias is 
showing, I know) or whatever...what penalty do I invoke to make you design 
things for high survivability when you only need them for orbital work, or 
only expect them to last for one combat engagement, or whatever other reason 
that you can think of that would lead you to cut corners on "safe" practices? 
I hesitate to say something CAN'T be doen, when the truth is that it SHOULDN'T 
be done. With all the disparate cultures of the Imperium, I can readily be-
lieve that there would be some where you could find pilots willing to fly 
unsafe but cheap (and therefore numerous) craft in defense of their homeland.  
Need I mention Japan and the Second Global War as an example from ancient 
Earth history? In a similar line, what about the "triple computer for spacego-
ing craft" rule?  At 60 MCr a unit for Model 9's, maybe it's worth only put-
ting one in a fighter and accepting the losses.  (My TL15 Lance and Javelin 
fighters had 75% of their cost sunk into a triple computer system--so with one 
computer you could buy twice as many.)

Good Discussion so far...

Rob Dean

-------- TML Message #1934 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1934
Date:     Tue, 4 Dec 90 13:43:41 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Increases in Local Law Level

This is not particulalry an appropriate topic for the list, but I hope you will
all bear with me for a minute.  I learned from the paper this morning that the
President has just signed into law the new federal ethics act.  As a result of
this, I, as a federal employee, am forbidden to receive any payment for any
article I write or lecture I give, on any subject whatsoever, under penalty
of a $10,000 fine, or the amount received in payment, whichever is greater.
This takes effect as of January 1.  The immediate practical consequence of this
is that I will not be able to sell any vehicle designs for inclusion in the
MegaTraveller Journal, or otherwise write for them, or for Challenge, White Wolf
or (fill in your favorite gaming magazine) and receive even a token payment.
While you can exepct that in fact they will not track me down and punish me
for taking $10 for a vehicle design, is it really worth the possibility of
a $10,000 fine?  

Looks like law level A or higher to me...

Rob (thoroughly disgusted) Dean



-------- TML Message #1935 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1935
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 90 13:48:21 PST
From: Vote For NoneOfTheAbove Write In Candidate  04-Dec-1990 1333 <baranski@meridn.enet.dec.COM>
Subject: habitats, hulls, ...

RE: Mark Gellis, Trade

I like your idea of having system with *large* number of space habitats.
The impact that such a setup would have on trade is that it's even more likely
that whatever you need, you can get it within your system, hence an even less
need for trade with other systems, mostly stuff that cannot be duplicated.

RE: Metlay, Armor

You give (micro)asteroid collisions as the reason for ships to have armor 40
minimum.  Let's think about this a bit more.  What defenses do ships have
against asteroids?  shields?  not that I'm aware of.  point defense lasers? we
have those, but I've never heard of any rules or scenarios dealing with
avoiding asteroids or microasteroids.
 
I personally would not like to have my main asteroid defense be how thick my
hull was, because there's eventually a bigger asteroid out there with your name
on it!  I'd want some kind of active defense.  First off some kind of
detection, and then some method for destroying or avoiding the asteroid.  how
small of a asteroid are we likely to be able to detect?  how small of an
asteroid is dangerous?  Is there a set of undetectable, but dangerous
asteroids? maybe I'll take the train, yeah...!

PS I agree with all the policy about TML and TDR that's been explained...

RE Shipping

You remember I mentioned slowboat (long orbit robot freighters) shiiping of
bulk cargos intrasystem at a certain TL.  Anyone want to comment on the
possibility of doing this intersystem, perhaps with a laser light sail?

Jim Baranski

-------- TML Message #1936 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1936
Subject: Re: slow boats
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 90 14:41:53 PST
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@metolius.WR>


James Baranski writes:
> You remember I mentioned slowboat (long orbit robot freighters) shiiping of
> bulk cargos intrasystem at a certain TL.  Anyone want to comment on the
> possibility of doing this intersystem, perhaps with a laser light sail?

I think economically, intersystem, it does NOT make sense.  Why? Because
of the cost of idle inventory all those slowboats travelling 30000 AU's
or more, means.  Were I doing business, I'd have no problem paying
multiple times the price for shipping, so my money wouldn't be tied up
in enroute waiting.  If I turned 50 times the business with the same
cash, I could pay up to 49 times my profit margin to make the deal and
make the same profit.  Not to mention the capitalization cost of all
those slowboats....

James
"if one man digs a posthole in 60 seconds, 60 men can do it in one second"

-------- TML Message #1937 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1937
Date: 4 Dec 90   17:02 EST
From: MKTESWX%GSUVM1.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: BITNET mail follows

Date: 4 December 1990, 16:59:34 EST
From: MKTESWX  at GSUVM1
To:   TRAVELLER at METOLIUS.WR.TEK.COM

I have been trying to send a file to the TML, but seem unable to get through.
This is a test message to see if anything at all can get to the TML from here.


-------- TML Message #1938 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1938
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 90 10:04:17 PST
From: Flame Bait <joshua%atherton.com@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: Archive Server for RPG table routines in C


In my last posting, I forgot to give the address of the archive
server which had the routines.  Sorry about that.  The server
can be found at any of these addresses (listed from best to worst):

    archive-server@atherton.com
    archive-server@joshua.atherton.com
    {sun,pyramid,decwrl}!athertn!archive-server
    {sun,pyramid,decwrl}!athertn!joshua!archive-server (rarely works)

Please put these table routines to good use, and tell me what you do with 
them.  Thanks.

Joshua Levy (joshua@atherton.com) [Co-Moderator of the CyberRPG mailing list.]

-------- TML Message #1939 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1939
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 07:51:38 -0500
From: al646@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (T. L. Hayes)
Subject: Comments




From: William Dow Rieder <wr0k+@andrew.cmu.edu>

>Here are some serious reasons for starships to have armor 40:
>1)  The ship has to be able to cruise through the Van Allen belts of gas
>giants without endangering the crew in order to use wilderness refueling.

Clarification please - are you worried about radiation or particulate
impact or both?

From: Vote For NoneOfTheAbove Write In Candidate 03-Dec-1990 1612 <baranski@meridn.enet.dec.COM>

Jim Baranski writes:

>Date: Sun, 2 Dec 90 15:04:23 -0700
>From: FELLOWS STEVEN B -5 CR <sfellows@slate.mines.colorado.edu>
>Subject: (1908) Shipping: Interstellar Trade: Why?
> 
>"A few reasons why I think people will be dispersed throughout space, receiving
>goods from other planets."
> 
>"1)Overpopulation.   'creates a market for food'
>
>The only cure for overpopulation is population control.  Emigration may have
>some effect on it, and feeding it only makes it worse.  I really have a hard
>time believing that it's economical to feed a planet from another planet as a
>matter of course.  You need a *good* reason to have a sizable population on a
>planet that can't support it.  It makes much more sense to put the people where
>the food is.

Unless the planet can not grow its own food because of its composition or
atmosphere but turns out to have a fortune if raw materials and is a handy
place to manufacture things (you can't breath the air anyway so why waste
time, money, and energy on pollution controls).  Moreover, if people are
hungry and can get the money they WILL PAY ANY PRICE for food no matter
where it comes from (homegrown or imported).  I as a trader do not care about
solving their problems (overpopulation) just in selling them the product that
is currently in demand (food and maybe birth control devices?).

>"2)The necessary support industry is not available and would be too costly
>to transplant."
>
>This does happen out of necessity in small colonies or research stations.
>But, given the shipping costs in the players guides, I can't see it being
>economical to import bulk goods.  small amount of goods will always be traded,
>as not much is needed, and it's cheaper to trade for that, but the more that
>you need something, the more important it is to produce it locally.

If you can produce it locally.  Sometimes the "need" for something not
locally produced or producable arises against the will of the populace or
as a result of skillful manipulation of the market (ie make them *think*
that they can't live without even if they can't live with it like cigarettes).

TLH

- - --
T.L.Hayes                  |
MIT/Lincoln Laboratory     |
Lexington, MA              |

-------- TML Message #1940 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1940
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 07:52:43 -0500
From: al646@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (T. L. Hayes)
Subject: Star Trek Trade System




As an example of a different (but not necessarily better) trade system, here
is a brief overview of Star Trek RPG trade system.  There are 8 basic 
catagories into which all trade items fall.  These are:

Foodstuffs and Agricultural Goods         Cr700        100 SCU
Normal Minerals and Raw Materials         Cr1000        70 SCU
Radioactives and Special Minerals         Cr1500        30 SCU
Drugs and Refined Medicinal Agents        Cr2000        50 SCU
Low Tech Manufactured Goods               Cr1200        90 SCU
Medium Tech Manufactured Goods            Cr2000        70 SCU
High Tech Manufactured Goods              Cr2200        50 SCU
Luxury Items                              Cr250 x d10   10 SCU x d10

The number following each catagory represent the base price/scu and the
base consumption/planet.  The SCU is Standard Cargo Unit (ie a ton in MT).
Each planet is given a rating in each catagory to represent its interest in
those items.  Low ratings imply an abundance of the items (like they're made
or grown there) a high rating implys a low supply and a great demand.  There
are 8 ratings starting at 0.25 and increasing by 0.25 up to 2.00.  The trick
then is to buy on a planet with a low rating in a catagory and transport the
cargo to a planet with a high rating.  For example buying iron on a planet
with a rating of 0.75 would cost Cr750/ton, selling it on a planet with a
rating of 1.5 would get you Cr1500/ton.  While you can buy as much as you
like how much you can sell depends on the base consumption.  In the example
above you could sell 70 tons to the planet at Cr1500/ton the next 70 tons or 
part thereof would by sold at one step lower (1.25) or Cr1250/ton, the next 70 
tons would be at Cr1000/ton and so on.  This is to reflect saturation of the 
market.  Population comes into play as a multiplier of the base consumption.
Very high pop planets multiply consumption by 4, high pop by 2, moderate pop
by 1, low by 0.5, very low by 0.25, and colony or station by 0.1.

Player skills are used to adjust the "apparent" interest a planet has in a
given catagory.  During purchase a successful roll would decrease the rating
by one step, a extreme failure would increase it by one.  On the selling planet
success would increase the rating by one and extreme failure would decrease it
by one.  Other skills could adjust the demand (successful marketing strategy).

As an example of how to translate MT trade clases into this system consider:

MT Trade Class        UTP (Universal Trade Profile)
Agriculturial         1 2 1 4 4 5 6 5 (Moderate)
Industrial            4 5 5 4 3 2 1 6 (Very High)
   where 1 = 0.25   5 = 1.25
         2 = 0.50   6 = 1.50
         3 = 0.75   7 = 1.75
         4 = 1.00   8 = 2.00

Ag planets would have low interest in ag products since they are readily
available.  Similarly they would have a relatively low interest in raw
materials (since they don't do manufacturing extensively).  Drugs and low
tech items would have normal interests while medium and high tech items and
luxury items would by in demand.  The moderate pop is used to modify the
base consumption.
The industrial planet would have a normal demand for food (it produces some
or most of what it needs but imports other types that can't be grown there
plus some to suppliment its own crops) and drugs (most planets will).  A
reduced demand for manufactured goods and an increased demand for raw materials
(but not greatly increased because, obviously, most of the material must be
present to support cheap manufacturing).

These numbers are pulled out of thin air.  Careful thought could set up a
better set of numbers and modify them for things like tech level and
multiple trade classifications.

I've been toying with the idea of using this type of system (modified of
course) in my Traveller game but I have been waiting to see what comes out of
the TDR trade system.  If some (ie more than 1 or 2) of you are interested, I
could flesh this out and recast it in MT terms.  Using this as a basis, you
could use tables to determine the actual cargo type and limit the available
tonnage.  Moreover, there could be some modifiers for certain cargos.  This
was not done in Star Trek RPG to minimize bookkeeping and because there is
no way to list every possible cargo type anyway.

Comments???

TLH


- - --
T.L.Hayes                  |
MIT/Lincoln Laboratory     |
Lexington, MA              |

-------- TML Message #1941 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1941
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Interstellar clippers
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 9:52:28 GMT

Brent L. Woods <woodsb@zoo.ecn.purdue.edu> writes:
>  In message 1913, adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt) writes:
>  >
>  >One thing I haven't seen in Traveller is any equivalent to the old
>  >clippers.  Their function was to get tea from China to Britain as fast
>  >as possible, to get the best prices.
>
>							There are
> different distances that individual jump drives can traverse, but as
> far as the ship is concerned, they all move at the same speed:  one
> jump per week (assuming quick refueling and a need to get somewhere
> in a hurry).  Half that if the ship in question wants to spend some
> time in port for trading, laying in supplies, performing simple
> repairs, and whatnot.

It's the different jump sizes that will make the difference.  A jump to a
system 1 parsec away takes one week; a jump to a system 3 parsecs away
takes 1 week for a jump-3 ship, at least 2 weeks for a jump-2 ship, and at
least 3 weeks for a jump-1 ship.  "At least", because if there isn't a
system in between to allow refuelling, or the ship isn't carrying extra
fuel, it will have to go the long way round.  There may not even be a long
way round; this is especially a problem for jump-1 ships.

>      There *could* be the equivalent of clipper ships, but that form of
> travel would be so ruinously expensive (since the ship won't be making
> any money along the way) that the cargo had better be *extremely*
> valuable (possibly more valuable than I can imagine, and, like Han Solo,
> I can imagine a *lot*.  :-) ).

A fast ship (i.e. one with a large jump number) won't need to make money
along the way, because it won't come out of jump-space along the way.  But
the cargo will need to be very valuable (like tea was to the British
Empire :-) in order to be profitable, because a high jump factor means a
lot of fuel, which means a lower proportion of the ship is cargo space.

>      Actually, now that I think about it a little bit, there *is* (well,
> at least *was*) something like a clipper route in the Imperium.  The
> IISS operates an _Azhanti_High_Lightning_ class cruiser to do nothing
> but carry wine from Earth to Capital for the Emperor's table (I'm told
> that tokay is very good, but *really*...).  Note that it takes a *large*
> agency of a major government to be able to afford this.

Or a large megacorporation.  Several Lightning class cruisers had their
main weapons removed (i.e. all but the turrets) and were sold for use as
big merchant ships.  One kept its main weapons, because the company in
question had good lawyers and found a loop-hole, and now trades with the
Vargr.

- - -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

-------- TML Message #1942 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1942
Date:     Wed, 5 Dec 90 11:26:29 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  More Hull Thickness Debate




Answers to several of yesterday's comments on hull thickness.

***************************************************************************

Mark Cook Writes:

> Subject: (1927) Pigs,...er...Windshields in Space!!

> In subject (1922) Rob Dean <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil> writes:

>> (Windshield analogy deleted)

> On the other hand, everybody MIGHT have bulletproof glass in their windows
> if they ran the risk of breaking one and SUFFOCATING before they got to
> the next body shop. :-)

Well, maybe so.  Of course, if your car was properly compartmentalized and
your windshield was self sealing...

> Sorry, Rob.  I couldn't resist.

Feel free. I'll do the scut work as soon as we're finished hashing out
the rationalizations.
****************************************************************************
"T. L. Hayes" <al646@cleveland.freenet.edu> writes:

> Subject: (1932) Re: Rob Dean's Posts

> From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>

>> As two sample calculations, I considered a cylindrical pressure vessel 
>> capable of containing one standard atmosphere of pressure (14.7psi)  <Sorry 
>> about the English units--I'm an engineer>.  I considered it to be made of 
>> mild steel, with no special alloys, etc, giving a yield strength of 
>> approximately 50,000psi. I also ignored end cap effects.  I decided that a 
>> safety factor of 2.5 was sufficient, so I put in a value of 20,000psi as 
>> the maximum allowable stress in the skin. At those conditions, a cylinder 
>> 10ft in diameter would need a wall thickness of less than 0.05 inches, which 
>> is less than Traveller armor value 1.  A 100ft diameter cylinder (ship 
>> sized) would require a wall thickness of 0.44 inches, between Traveller 
>> armor values 3 and 4.  50,000psi mild steel would be the equivalent of 
>> armor type A (soft steel).

> I have not designed many ships but I don't see how you go from thickness to 
> armor value (or vice versa).  Again, I have not designed but maybe half a
> dozen ships but if I understand things correctly a 100 ton ship occupies a
> volume of 1350 cubic meters and has a mass of 40 tons.  Multiply by 33 for
> an armor factor of 40 and by 1.25 for soft steel and you get 1650 tons for 
> weight (mass).  I believe a minimum surface polygon enclosing the volume 
> listed would be a sphere 685.6172 cm in radius.  I don't know the density 
> of steel but the specific gravity of iron is about 8 gm/cc (which means 
> the density of steel is about the same?).  If you assume a mass of 
> 1,650,000 gms and calculate the thickness of the skin of the sphere you 
> find it to be 0.0349 cm or about 0.0137 in.  If the density is greater 
> than 8 gm/cc then the thickness will be even less.  Somebody check these 






> numbers, you know how bad I am with numbers!
> Assuming no miscalculations, wouldn't this coupled with your calculations 
> mean that the hulls should have a higher armor rating?

I will have to admit that I didn't do the calculations that way, although I
probably should have to be valid.  Like any good engineer, I merely looked
the answer up in my handbook, which in this case is the design system from
Striker, where each armor value was equated to a certain thickness of hard 
steel.  To get an armor value, you took the thickness, multiplied it by a
fudge factor for the material, and then compared it to the table.  So that's
where those numbers came from.  If somebody would like to do a surface area
to weight correlation for each of the basic configurations, it might be
handy.  In Striker, everything was a rectangular block, so when you mult-
iplied the face dimensions by the armor thickness, you always got a valid
weight.




-------- TML Message #1943 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1943
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 10:32 EDT
From: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Subject: PING! *WHOOOOOSH!* Oh well, so much for life insurance....


Jim and Rob have raised queries about starship armor. I hope that this 
eventually gets codified on the TDR SIG, but one worry at a time....

Rob, there is NO reason that a local navy can't make an armor-8 ship.
Turn the "impossibilities" in the rules into "not really a good ideas"
and there you go. But be sure to add tasks for the ref to nuke the 
resulting rattletraps with passing chunks of matter....

Jim, active defense against micrometeoroids is essentially impossible;
there is a large class of rocks that are too small to see, much less
shoot at and vaporize, that could hull a thin-skinned ship at high speed.
Armor (especially (turn up the gain on the Physics Nullifier, Dow!) "bonded
superdense") is the easiest way of dealing with said problems.

There are circumstances where one must take one's chances, though. Anyone
ever see "Conquest of Space"? It was a 1950s movie about the first manned
mission to mars, about 50/50 lousy filmmaking and truly visionary ideas.
There's a scene where a passing cluster of micrometeoroids whips by the
outbound ship at a fairly high relative velocity while two of the astronauts
are outside performing some sort of instrument adjustment. Ross Martin takes
a high-V frag through the vacc suit and dies horribly. I was about six years
old the first time I saw that film; it scarred me for life. |->

metlay

-------- TML Message #1944 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1944
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 07:53:28 -0500
From: al646@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (T. L. Hayes)
Subject: More Comments



From: Orcinus orca <jokim@jarthur.claremont.edu>
John H. Kim says:

>To generate the position of each star/planet/moon requires
>six orbital elements for each object of interest, including
>the object you're viewing from.  Furthermore, the formulae
>involved, while not horribly complicated, are a pain to solve.
>I know, I've done it before.  You'd also need other information
>like mass, luminosity/albedo, and on and on to cover the other
>points you mentioned.

>All this is waaaaaay out of the scope of the Traveller rules.
>If you're still seriously considering this and there is no
>commercial software currently available, I'd recommend you
>get a good book on astrophysics (a background in higher
>calculus as about all you need, although more is helpful)
>and devote at least a month of your evenings to the problem.

All this is true however a simplified first cut at the problem might be
to use p^2 = a^3 where p is the period and a is the semimajor axis.  For
example suppose there is a gas giant around which 3 moons orbit.  The middle
moon is where the players are and they want to know where the other moons
are and when the gas giant eclipse the sun(s).  Calculate or set a period for
the middle moon with respect to the sun (this takes into account the motion
of the gas giant ie our moon has a period wrt the stars of 27 days but the
time between full moons is 29 day its period wrt the sun).  If you know the
semimajor axis of the other moon in terms of the semimajor axis of the middle
moon you can calculate the periods (or vice versa).  An example:

    Moon      semimajor axis  period
     1            1/4           1/8
     2             1             1
     3             4             8

Therefore if the middle moon has a period of 8 days then the inner moon is
1 day and the outer is 64.  Alternatively, given the periods you can find the
semimajor axis.  With this knowledge, pick where you want the relative
positions to be initially then as time passes you can estimate where the new
positions will be and can say where in the sky things are.  Using this data
and John Kim's angular size equation you can calculate the percentage of the
orbit of the moon that is in the shadow of the gas giant and therefore how long
the eclipse lasts.  This can be done for each moon.  In fact if you assume
circular orbits (which can be show to be generally the case as high ecc. objects
tend to get there orbits corrected) you can sketch out the system in question
for some aritrary time (like 001-1100) and then calculate how many orbits or
partial orbits have elapsed for each object and figure its current position
for any future time.  This ignores lots of interesting physics but for the
purpose of the game its sufficient.  For more details on this calculation
look up Kepler's Laws in any basic physics or astronomy book.  

If you have a Mac (or access to one) there is a program called Voyager that
would be of some use.  There are PC programs as well, I just can't remember
their names.

TLH

- - --
T.L.Hayes                  |
MIT/Lincoln Laboratory     |
Lexington, MA              |

-------- TML Message #1945 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1945
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 13:29:52 -0500
From: al646@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (T. L. Hayes)
Subject: Of interest -


I found this on newsgroups.rec.games.frg thought some of you may find it
interesting.  The question being responded to initially was what is your
favorite SFRPG?

>In article <999.gaming.role.playing@pro-micol> psavoie@pro-micol.cts.com (Pierre
> Savoie) writes:
>>In-Reply-To: message from a481@mindlink.UUCP
>>
>>   J.D. Frazer has uncovered an interesting point:  there are several dozen
>>RPGs covering science-fiction, but none of these really stands out as the most
>>popular.  I admire stuff put out by GDW (MegaTraveller; 2300; even SPACE 1889!
>>despite the obvious pun in the title) because they do a thorough job before
>>they release a product.  But there's so much else.
>
>As a store owner and rpger, I have to strongly disagree with your
>comment about GDW doing a thorough job on their rpgs. MegaTraveller has
>seven official pages of errata, and at least 100 K of unofficial errata.
>Ask anyone on the Traveller mailing list how well thought out MT is.
>
>2300 AD (Traveller 2300 in a former life) was a nice outline for
>an rpg in its first edition; the second edition is more complete, but
>manages to keep all the endearing stupid cultural details concerning
>the non-european cultures, like the languages the Indian nations speak.
>The Colonial guidebook is a mish mash of styles. Couldn't they afford an
>editor?
>
>1889 is a gross waste of money. Why bother having colour plates
>if all you're going to put on them is pencil crayon drawings? I'll give
>1889 this: they did put out some good modules for it. However, the
>basic game sucks and is blatently padded with useless ugly art.
>
>Now, GDW isn't a *bad* company, just grossly lazy. I can't
>recommend their games to people, though, especially first edition
>GDW games, because quite often, their games are poorly thought out,
>badly playtested  (If they *do* playtest their rpgs) and far too likely
>to require either massive amounts of house rules  or the purchase
>of the second edition that almost inevitably follows a year or two
>after they publish their outline-style first edtion rpgs.
>
>
>						 James Nicoll

TLH

- - --
T.L.Hayes                  |
MIT/Lincoln Laboratory     |
Lexington, MA              |

-------- TML Message #1946 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1946
From: plb%violin.att.com@RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: He's at it again
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 9:53:01 EST

Operating System: HP-UX A.B7.00 U
Organization: AT&T-BL, Red Hill System Administration Group (HRSAG)
Location: HR 2C119
Phone: (201) 615-4419
Return-receipt:
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL5]


If I ever figure out these blasted rules.....



How do you calculate the amount of fuel those darn power plants
need using the MegaT rules?   I won't even repeat the figure I came
up with... it was ridiculus!

	Here's the scenario:  
	
		A 2000T ship (volume 27000kl, Weight 600, etc.)
		Jump 3, 3G manuever drives...
		
	What I figured out so far (and poke holes here where needed) is this:
	
	To obtain Jump 3 with this ship I need:
	
		80 Jump units, for a total volume of 1080kl, and a weight
		of 2160 tons.  This would need 800kl of fuel (I want this
		ship capable of 2 jumps at jump 3.)
		
		So far so good... ( I think )
		
	To get 3G of manuever I need:
	
		160 Maneuver drive units, for a total volume of 2160kl,
		and a weight of 5600T.  Power required would be 11,200MW.
		
	Now here is where I get screwed up:
	
	I want there to be double the amount of power available than
	what engineering needs for agility considerations.  Therefore I
	want my powerplant to generate 22,400MW.  Looking at the charts
	I find that I need 3734 fusion power plant units at a volume of
	3734kl, and figuring out fuel I'm not so sure about... 
	
	Rob? Metlay? Anybody out there want to help a High Guard refugee?
	
- - -- 
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
" Peter L. Berghold  " INTERNET: plb@violin.att.com "+1(908)615-4419   "
" System Adminstrator" BIX     : peteb              """"""""""""""""""""
" AT&T, HRSAG        " DELPHI  : berghold """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

-------- TML Message #1947 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1947
From: Mark F. Cook <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.COM>
Subject: New TDR SIG mailing lists!
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 15:09:13 PST

At the risk of stealing some of TML's thunder (which is not my intention),
and with lots of help and advice from Dan Corrin (thanks Dan!), I have set
up mail lists for all of the TDR SIGs.  It will no longer be neccessary for
any of the SIG members to maintain individual mail lists for the SIGs they
belong to.  Simply mail to the appropriate SIG E-mail address, and the
letter will automatically be distributed to all the current members of
that SIG.  The SIGs, their addresses, and their current members are:

SIG: TDR Administration (not really a SIG)
SIG Address: tdr_admin@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Mark Cook
  Metlay

SIG: New Character Classes
SIG Address: tdr_char_class@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Robert Poole
  Andrew Salamon

SIG: New Character Generation Rules
SIG Address: tdr_char_gen@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Andy Coombes
  Iain Fogg
  Burton Choinski
  Eric Sergienko
  Dan Corrin
  Robert Poole
  Carl Rigney
  Nick Sylvain

SIG: New Character Skills
SIG Address: tdr_char_skill@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Bill Morrison
  Burton Choinski
  Eric Sergienko
  Metlay
  Roger Opperman
  Paul Baughman

SIG: New Combat Rules (personal, vehicle, & space)
SIG Address: tdr_combat@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Adrian Hurt
  Iain Fogg
  Mark Cook
  Tony Hayes
  Bertil Jonell
  Roger Opperman
  Carl Rigney

SIG: New Equipment (non-weapon)
SIG Address: tdr_equip@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Eric Sergienko
  Mark Cook
  Metlay
  Paul Baughman

SIG: Rules for Medicine, Healing, et.al.
SIG Address: tdr_medical@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Bill Morrison
  Eric Sergienko
  Mark Cook
  Nick Sylvain

SIG: Detailing Physical Consistancy for TDR
SIG Address: tdr_physics@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Bart Massey
  George William Herbert
  Tony Hayes
  Robert Poole

SIG: New Task Rules
SIG Address: tdr_tasks@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Bill Morrison
  Jerry Williams
  Dan Corrin
  Metlay

SIG: Trade & Commerce
SIG Address: tdr_trade@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Dan Corrin
  W. Dow Rieder
  Steven Fellows
  Metlay
  Carl Rigney
  Charles McGrew
  Tony Hayes

SIG: New Vehicle Designs
SIG Address: tdr_veh_list@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Pale Dale
  George William Herbert
  Robert Dean

SIG: New Vehicle Design Rules
SIG Address: tdr_vehicle@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Burton Choinski
  Dan Corrin
  W. Dow Rieder
  Pale Dale
  George William Herbert
  Robert Dean

SIG: New Weapon Designs
SIG Address: tdr_weapons@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Adrian Hurt
  Iain Fogg
  Mark Cook
  Tony Hayes
  Bertil Jonell
  Roger Opperman
  Metlay

SIG: World Building Rules
SIG Address: tdr_world@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
  Bill Morrison
  Burton Choinski
  Dan Corrin
  Dave Allen
  Carl Rigney

Note that the "tdr_admin" SIG is for requests, complaints, and comments to
TDR SIG administrators, and is not likely to get bigger. :-)

If anyone has mailer problems to these addresses, it may be correctable by
changing "@hpcvss.cv.hp.com" to "%hpcvss.cv.hp.com@relay.hp.com".  This
has solved the problem in at least one case.

I will be administering the mail lists.  If you want to join one or more
of these SIGs, send a request to "tdr_admin" and you'll be added.

These mailing lists are already up and running, so they can be used
immediately.

Later,

        - Mark F. Cook (TDR Archivist)

-------- TML Message #1948 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1948
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 14:24:45 -0900
From: George William Herbert <gwh@ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Armour Factors...


The 100 displacement ton sphere will have a hull surface area of
615 m^2.  At a (sphere wt= x 0.8?) normal hull, it would weigh
1320 tons.  That's 2.15 tons/m^2.  Or 215 g/cm^2.
	Now, I don't know how much you all know about real
spacecraft design, but 200 g/cm^2 is at the low end of what's healthy
for long-term radiation exposure in deep space*.  Permanent facilities
ought to be more.  (about a factor of two more, maybe three.  But
200 g/cm^2 is in the right ballpark).

	WHat do current spacecraft weigh? about 2 g/cm^2, ranging up
to 3.  Why do they get away with this?  They stay within earth's magnetic
field (which deflects both solar radiation and Galactic Cosmic Radiation or
GCR) and out of the high-radiation Van Allen belts.

	So, to answer the 'why' of 'why are they that thick' we can plead
crew safety 8-), and the 'how can i make it less'; if it's for near-orbit use,
and you don't mind a (lightly) irradited crew, it can be a lot less.

- - -george william herbert
gwh@ocf.berkeley.edu

* deep space radiation falls under two sections; that produced by the sun
in solar flares (intermittent) and the cosmic ray background, constant
in the galaxy.  Generally, the same amount of shielding will keep 
flare doses at safe short-exposure levels and the continuous GCR at
safe long-exposure levels.  I can copy some NASA info on this for anyone
that wants it.

-------- TML Message #1949 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1949
Date:     Wed, 5 Dec 90 21:48:45 PST
From: Orcinus orca <jokim@jarthur.Claremont.edu>
Subject:  Re:  (1944) More Comments

[ Good idea from T. L. Hayes about using only orbit periods to
  determine eclipses deleted]

If you're only interested in an occasional eclipse or two,
it's a great idea.  The impression I got from the original
letter (I don't save these for much more than a day so I
can't check) was that he wanted to know what the night sky
would look like given a certain time and place.  If you use
T. L. Hayes's simplification for this, you get the boring
(in my opinion) result of all the planets/moons/suns lined
up in one line in the sky.  I like to imagine the view at
Regina as something like the Saturn mosaic JPL released,
with a moon here and there.  I suppose you could fake it.

I've got the Saturn mosaic as a very well done digitized
bitmap (640x480x256) if anyone's interested.  You can even
pick out some of the background stars (I could almost swear
one group is the Pleiades...)
- - --
John H. Kim
jokim@jarthur.claremont.edu
uunet!jarthur!jokim

-------- TML Message #1950 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1950
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 90 07:58:16 -0500
From: al646@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (T. L. Hayes)
Subject: Correction



The other day I said:

>is about the same?).  If you assume a mass of 1,650,000 gms and calculate the
>thickness of the skin of the sphere you find it to be 0.0349 cm or about 
>0.0137 in.  If the density is greater than 8 gm/cc then the thickness will be
>even less.  Somebody check these numbers, you know how bad I am with numbers!
>Assuming no miscalculations, wouldn't this coupled with your calculations 
>mean that the hulls should have a higher armor rating?

What I meant was 1,650,000 kgs.  This gives a thickness of 33.27 cm.  This
looks more like what it should.  I told you I was bad with numbers.  Hard
to believe I graduated college!  Fortunately, in physics and astronomy you
do most of your work with symbols (which I don't have problems with, really!).

TLH

- - --
T.L.Hayes                  |
MIT/Lincoln Laboratory     |
Lexington, MA              |

-------- TML Message #1951 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1951
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 90 08:00:34 -0500
From: al646@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (T. L. Hayes)
Subject: New Service - Bounty Hunter



An addition to the basic character services - Bounty Hunter

First my version of College

College -
Admission  7+    DM +2 if Edu 9+
Success    9+    DM +2 if Int 8+
OTC        8+    DM +1 if Soc 8+
NOTC       9+    DM +1 if Soc A+
Honors     10+   DM +1 if Int A+

Roll Twice - Three times if Honors

College Skills Tables -
Roll   Skill
1      Academic*
2      Mental*
3      Physical*
4      Computer
5      Inborn*
6      Interpersonal*

* Cascade skill as shown in MT Players' Manual except:
  Add Computer to Academic
  Add Carousing to Interpersonal



               Bounty Hunter
Enlistment          6+
DM +1 if          End 7+
DM +2 if          Dex A+

Survival            7+
DM +2 if          Int 8+

Special Duty        6+

Reenlist            5+

1. Personal Development Table    2. Service Skills Table
Bounty Hunter                    Bounty Hunter
1 Physical                       1 Gun Cbt
2 +1 Dex                         2 Vehicle
3 Mental                         3 Vice
4 Vice                           4 Hand Cbt
5 Hand Cbt                       5 Blade Cbt
6 Carousing                      6 Gun Cbt

3. Advanced Education Table      4. Advanced Education Table (Education 8+)
Bounty Hunter                    Bounty Hunter                    
1 Explor                         1 Interpers
2 Environ                        2 Technical
3 Tactics                        3 Environ
4 Interpers                      4 Space
5 Streetwise                     5 Medical
6 Inborn                         6 Interrog

Mustering Out Tables             Cash Tables
Bounty Hunter                    Bounty Hunter                    
1 Low Psg                        1 -------
2 +1 Int                         2   5,000
3 Weapon                         3  10,000
4 Weapon                         4  50,000
5 High Psg                       5 100,000
6 Hunter                         6 100,000
                                 7 200,000

Hunter is aa 150 ton ship designed especially for Bounty Hunters.

TLH

- - --
T.L.Hayes                  |
MIT/Lincoln Laboratory     |
Lexington, MA              |

-------- TML Message #1952 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1952
Date:     Thu, 6 Dec 90 10:04:26 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Minimum Armor Kamikazes

I realized yesterday that I had forgotten to mention one of the most obvious
circumstances in which vehicle armor would not matter--in the robot controlled
vehicle.  

"Lost another 500 robofighters, Charlie".

"Guess I'll start sending the next of kin letters to Madhidkarun Robotics, eh?"

Rob Dean


-------- TML Message #1953 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1953
From: chk@alias (C. Harald Koch)
Subject: Re: (1935) habitats, hulls, ...
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 90 10:53:11 EST

> I personally would not like to have my main asteroid defense be how thick
> my hull was, because there's eventually a bigger asteroid out there with
> your name on it!

I agree, you still need an active defense system of some sort. However, no
matter how sophisticated your sensors are, there will be space dust smaller
than they can detect. There is also a size below which there is no point
trying to destroy incoming objects because they are too hard to hit.

The objective of a ship designer will be to strike a happy medium; Have an
active defense system that can destroy or evade larger incoming objects, and
a passive system (shields, armour) that can handle the objects that are too
small for the active system to deal with.

Ideally you want a fair amount of overlap, in case your active system misses
something (or is overloaded by sheer volume of debris). Hence the reason for
a large amount of armour on ships.

- - -- 
C. Harald Koch  VE3TLA                Alias Research, Inc., Toronto ON Canada
chk%alias@csri.utoronto.ca      chk@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu      chk@chk.mef.org
"Open the Zamboni! We're coming out!" - Kathrin Garland and Anson James, 2299


-------- End of TML Messages --------


-------- TML Message #1954 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1954
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 90 17:09:38 -0500
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!tnc!m0068@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: DEsigns from Scott Kellogg 12/4/90

From: m0068@tnc.UUCP (Stephen D Smith)
Organization: personal mailbox at The Next Challenge
 
*********************************************************
I have no access to e-mail so you will not be able to 
reach me very easily and there will be long gaps between
my having access to any comments to any designs or ideas
you might have but I would appreciate it
 
      Scott Kellogg      (703)-836-8352
      1202 S. Washington St. #107
      Alexandria, VA, 22314
*********************************************************
 
Attack Submarine TL8 "Los Angeles" Class
 
CraftID:  Attack Submarine, Type SSN TL8, MCr 196.88456
Hull:     (405/1013) Disp=450, Config=3AF, Armor=44C,
          Unload=5202.2718t, Load=5515t, Dived=6075t,
          SafeDepth=300m, CrushDepth=450m
Power:    (18/23) 344Mw Fission, Dur=2yrs
Loco:     (35/46) Single Screw, DiveTop=59Kph, DiveCruise=45kph,
          Surface=28kph
Commo:    Radio=Cont*2, Reg*4, RadioJamm=Cont*2, Laser=Reg*2
Sensors:  Active Audio*3, Passive Audio*30, Magnetic Sensor*3,
          Radiation Sensor*2, Environmental Sensor*3,
          AllWeatherRADAR=Reg*3, RDF*3, Image Enhancement*1,
          Passive IR*1, AdvActive IR*1, Headlight*1, Video
          Camera*1, RadarJamm=Reg*2
          ActObjScn=Diff    ActObjPin=Diff ActAudScn=Form 
          ActAudPin=Form PasAudScn=Form PasAudPin=Form
          PasEngScn=Diff
Off:      533mm Torpedo Tubes*4
                                Max            Chance
                Rnds  Warhead  Range    Speed    Hit%
Mk 48 Torpedo     18    300kg   25km   111kph     75%
Harpoon            6    227kg  148km  1040kph     80%
Tomahawk           4    454kg  460km   890kph     75%
 
The Mk 48 is a wire guided torpedo.
The Harpoon and Tomahawk use an intertial guidance system and a
terminal phase active homing radar.
 
Def:      DefDM=+4  Clusterguard Anechoic coating, Titanium
          Hull reduces magnetic signature
Control:  Computer=2fib*3, ElectronicLink=1853, Electronic Circuit
          Protect,
Accom:    Crew=133, SmallStateroom=22, Bunks=111, Env=Basic Env,
          Basic is, Extend is, AirLock*3
Other:    Fuel=.688Kl Fissiles, Mag=42Kl, 28 rds,
          Telescopicmasts*6, Electronic sensors mounted on masts,
          Cargo=262.1282Kl, ObjSize=Avg, EMlevel=Faint
 
Remarks:  The US Navy's big attack sub.  The above is the early
version, before the fitting of 12 verticle launch tubes for
Tomahawk missiles.
 
    For details on how I came up with this see the 'Alfa'
 
Scott Kellogg
 
    via   Stephen D Smith   USENET: m0068@tnc.UUCP
                            BIX: sdsmith
- - --Name = STEPHEN SMITH  Mailbox # = 68

-------- TML Message #1955 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1955
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 90 17:10:02 -0500
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!tnc!m0068@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Designs from Scott Kellogg 12/5/90

From: m0068@tnc.UUCP (Stephen D Smith)
Organization: personal mailbox at The Next Challenge
 
*********************************************************
I have no access to e-mail so you will not be able to 
reach me very easily and there will be long gaps between
my having access to any comments to any designs or ideas
you might have but I would appreciate it
 
      Scott Kellogg      (703)-836-8352
      1202 S. Washington St. #107
      Alexandria, VA, 22314
*********************************************************
 
Fleet Escort TL 15 "P.F. Sloan" Class
 
CraftID:  Fleet Escort Type FE, TL 15, MCr 4147.465
Hull:     (4500/11250) Disp=5000 Config=3SL, Armor=55G,
          Unload=77419.9, Load=83319
Power:    (513/683) 92192.4 Mw Fusion, Dur=(30 days @ reduced power
          {no lasers, no screens.} Full Power consumes 3 days of
          reduced fuel in 2 days.)
Loco:     (1143/1530), Manuver=6G, (338/450) Jump=4, Agility=0
          NOE=190, Cruise=750kph, Top=1000kph,
Commo:    Radio=System*2, Maser=System*2
Sensors:  EMM, P-EMS=Interstel*3, A-EMS=FarOrb*3,
          Densitometer=250m*3, Neutrino=10kw*3, EMS-JAM=FarOrb*2
          ActObjScn=Rout,   ActObjPin=Rout,
          PasObjScn=Rout,   PasObjPin=Rout
          PasEnScn=Simp,          PasEnPin=Rout
Off:      HPoints=50
          Blasers=xx9 Missile=x09
          Batt        3           2
          Bear        3           2
Def:      DefDM=+9 Nuc Damper-1, Meson Scn-7
Control:  Computer=9fib*3, LrgHoloDisp=1, HoloHUD=17, HoloLink=17,
          Electronic Circuit Protect,
Accom:    Crew=55 (11*5)(Command=7, Bridge=7, Engineer=7, Gunner=22
          Flight=6, Mantain=3, Steward=1, Medic=1) Env=Basic Env,
          Basic is, Extend is, Inertial Comp, Grav Plate,
          Subcraft=50 ton shuttles*3
Other:    Fuel=33470Kl, Mag=5050Kl, 507B-rds, B-rd=100missiles,
          Cargo=7.3Kl, Scoops, ObjSize=Lrg, EMlevel=Faint
 
Remarks:  "The 'P.F. Sloan' Class fleet escort is intended for
routine fleet security and support.  Fleet escorts are assigned in
quantity for local or system defense any time that several
squadrons or a fleet are present.  If it is remembered that Sloans
are lightly armed and armored, then their performance can be seen
as admirable, although they cannot withstand major engagements."-
Supplement 9:  Fighting Ships
 
    The High Guard edition had Agility=6, Nuclear Damper-2, Meson
Screens-2, Crew=40, But she cost only 3334.526
 
    Figured prominantly in GDW's Spinward Marches Campaign.
 
    There is an article w/ deck plans for the ship 'Arian Lisiani'
in Challenge 25, a P.F. Sloan Class escort.  Apparantly Arian
Lisiani was a Navy captain posthumusly awarded the S.E.H.. This
ripped up my own theory of naming them but I can still suggest a
few.  It might be fun to run across the...
 
ISS 8977 Barry McGuire
ISS 8978 Johnny Rivers
ISS 8979 Bob Dylan
ISS 8980 Lucky Wilbury
ISS 8981 Paul Simon
ISS 8982 Steven Stills
ISS 8983 Eve of Destruction
ISS 8984 Secret Agent Man
ISS 8985 Let Me Be
ISS 8986 Measure of Pleasure
ISS 8987 Can I Get To Know You Better?
 
Or perhaps they only are known by numbers... ("They've given you
a number, and taken away your name...") -P.F. Sloan
HeHeHeHeHeHeHe.
 
Original High Guard Design by Tim Brown, Frank Chadwick & Marc
Miller
Reprinted without permission            (Don't Shoot!)
 
Scott Kellogg
 
     via  Stephen D Smith   USENET: m0068@tnc.UUCP
                            BIX: sdsmith
- - --Name = STEPHEN SMITH  Mailbox # = 68

-------- TML Message #1956 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1956
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 90 17:10:26 -0500
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!tnc!m0068@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: DEsigns from Scott Kellogg 12/6/90

From: m0068@tnc.UUCP (Stephen D Smith)
Organization: personal mailbox at The Next Challenge
 
*********************************************************
I have no access to e-mail so you will not be able to 
reach me very easily and there will be long gaps between
my having access to any comments to any designs or ideas
you might have but I would appreciate it
 
      Scott Kellogg      (703)-836-8352
      1202 S. Washington St. #107
      Alexandria, VA, 22314
*********************************************************
 
Dreadnaught TL 15, "Plankwell" Class
 
CraftID:  Dreadnaught Type BB, TL 15, MCr 171650
Hull:     (180000/450000) Disp=200000 Config=3SL, Armor=70G,
          Unload=3830934, Load=4019096.3
Power:    (26739/35652) 4812912 Mw Fusion, Dur=30 @ low power (no
          offensive wpns except BLasers, Agility=0) Combat power
          consumes 2 days reduced fuel per day)
Loco:     (37800/50400), Manuver=5G, (13500/18000) Jump=4,
          Agility=2 NOE=190, Cruise=750kph, Top=1000kph,
Commo:    Radio=System*10, Maser=System*10, Meson=System,
          RadioJam=System
Sensors:  EMM, P-EMS=Interstel*3, A-EMS=FarOrb*3,
          Densitometer=1km*3, Neutrino=10kw*3, EMS-Jam=FarOrb*3
          ActObjScn=Rout          ActObjPin=Rout
          PasObjScn=Rout          PasObjPin=Rout
          PasEnScn=Simp           PasEnPin=Rout
Off:      HPoints=2000
          Meson Gun=T0x   Missile=x90     ParticleAcc=x70
          Batt        1           52                26
          Bear        1           80                40
          BLasers=x09 FGun=x06
          Batt        7           10
          Bear        10          15
Def:      DefDM=+9 Meson Scn-7, NucDamp-9,
          SCaster=x07 Repulsor=x09
          Batt        16          34
          Bear        25          50
Control:  Computer=9fib*3, LrgHoloDisp=20, HoloHUD=915,
          HoloLink=915, Electronic Circuit Protect
Accom:    Crew=689 3*200 (Command=94, Bridge=38, Engineer=323,
          Gunner=59, Flight=6, Maintain=141, Medic=5, Steward=23)
          Env=Basic Env, Basic is, Extend is, Inertial Comp, Grav
          Plate, Subcraft=50 ton*3
Other:    Magazine=126100kl (487b-r) Battery round=2600 missiles,
          Fuel=1427324Kl, Scoops, Fuel Pure=72hr, Cargo=85.3Kl,
          ObjSize=Lrg, EMlevel=Mod
 
Remarks:  "The 'Plankwell' class dreadnaught is a more specialized
ship than the multi-task oriented 'Tigress' class.  Lacking the
extensive troop complement and the large fighter screen, the
'Plankwell' fulfills a more traditional battleship role, as the
center of a fleet of supporting ships.
 
    For decades, the Imperial Fleet in the Spinward Marches has
included at leas one BatRon of 'Plankwell' class ships, but
recently (1102), the last such squadron was rotated to the
strategic reserve in Corridor Sector.  Sentiment in Naval and
Sector circles runs high in favor of returning at least one BatRon
to the Marches.
 
    'Plankwell' class dreadnaughts are named for notable admirals
in the Imperial Navy.  The class name is taken from Grand Admiral
Olav hault-Plankwell, a sector admiral in the Spinward Marches who
rose to Grand Admiral of the Marches and lead to the defeat of the
Outworld Coalition during the First Frontier War (589 to 604). 
Following his victory in 604, he lead the fleet to the Core,
personally dispatched the Empress Jaqueline I, and took over the
government.  The result was the long, bloody Civil War; Olav was
the first of the Emperors of the Flag.  Although Olav is in
disrepute as an emperor, Grand Admiral Plankwell is still
remembered and honored for his achievements as a naval commander
in the First Frontier War; significantly his name has not been
assigned to any ship in the new 'Cleon' class of battleriders,
named for Emperors of the Imperium.
 
    Modular Construction:  'Plankwell' class dreadnaughts were
built using a modular construction technique which has proven cost
effective in commercial ship-building.  A central strut or keel
serves as a foundation, bracing the drives and aligning the spinal
mount, while all other parts of the ship are mounted to brackets
or strengthened points along it.  The technique allows separate
costruction of the various modules (such as quarters, electronics
areas, fuel tankage, and control areas), with a final mating of all
the variusl componants being performed only after the drives and
keel have been tested and accepted.  There was some initial concern
that the connecting points would be focusses for weakness in
battle, but the losses of two separate 'Plankwell's in combat has
been attributed by investigating boards to strategic
misdirection."  -Supplement 9:  Fighting Ships
 
Original High Guard Design by Tim Brown, Frank Chadwick & Marc
Miller
Reprinted without permission            (No Shoot!)
 
Scott Kellogg
 
     via  Stephen D Smith   USENET: m0068@tnc.UUCP
                            BIX: sdsmith
- - --Name = STEPHEN SMITH  Mailbox # = 68

-------- TML Message #1957 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1957
Date: 6 Dec 90   11:32 EST
From: MKTESWX%GSUVM1.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject:  Why Trade?  Or, the Tail Wagging the Dog.

Date: 6 December 1990, 10:50:59 EST
From: MKTESWX  at GSUVM1
To:   TRAVELLER at METOLIUS.WR.TEK.COM
Subject:  Why Trade?  Or, the Tail Wagging the Dog.

I'll try to keep this short (ha!).  I have a major problem with the people who
keep posting messages telling me why trade won't work in Traveller (or TDR) and
therefore should be dropped.  I assume you want to keep the "look and feel" of
Traveller (large interstellar governments, interstellar Travel, etc), and to do
 that you *MUST* have trade.

If interstellar trade in impractical, there is no economic connection between
systems unless one is a captive colony of the other, and there is very little
reason for a system to have these colonies (barring Religious Destiny).  There-
fore, no peaceful cooperation, no interstellar government, no passenger
traffic, etc.  Traveller is now set in ONE highly developed star system.  I
think we have a problem here ;).

Fortunately, we don't even have to change very much of MT to make interstellar
shipping a prosperous ongoing business.  We just have to look at the numbers
from a new direction.  First, let's look at the value (Man. Sug. Retail Pr) of
a "typical" cargo, say one ton of metalworking tools.  A metalworking tool kit
displaces 50l and sells for 1500Cr.  One tn=14 cub. m.=14000l.  Assume packing
materials are incredibly inefficient and occupy 40% of available volume, you
still have 8400l of cargo space = 168 kits = 252000Cr.  If shipping accounts
for only 5% of final cost (less than it does for most goods currently shipped
internationally) then a starship must be able to make a typical run for 12600
credits per ton of mean cargo carried.  I haven't generated typical expenses
for a free trader or far trader, but somehow I don't think this will be a
problem <g,d,&r>.

Obviously, the only problem with making trade in MT profitable is that the
cargo and freight rates have been grossly underestimated.  Perhaps noone ever
built a 14 cubic meter crate and filled it with trade goods?

BTW, the metalworking tool kit is NOT  particularly high pr/vol item.  Try
doing this with clothing, or vacc suits, or any other item on the equipment
lists.  Even bulk chemicals, such as Water Dyes.

The best news is that the ship design folks seem to be on the verge of deciding
that fuel consumption is far too high unless most of that is tossed out the
back as reaction mass for the maneuver drive.  This makes fuel cost for Jump
relatively small, increasing the relative profitability of interstellar trade
(not to mention making higher jump trading vessels more practical).

BTW, in case you haven't noticed, I'll be joining the Trade & Commerce SIG.

                               Everett

-------- TML Message #1958 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1958
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 90 14:16:11 PST
From: Vote For NoneOfTheAbove Write In Candidate  06-Dec-1990 1654 <baranski@meridn.enet.dec.COM>
Subject: trade

RE: al646@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (T. L. Hayes) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 07:51:38 -0500
 
"Unless the planet can not grow its own food because of its composition or
atmosphere but turns out to have a fortune if raw materials and is a handy
place to manufacture things."

My point is that a population will not be someplace where the bulk necessities
of life do not exist without a ***good*** reason.  Sure, a people may be on a
planet to exploit a resource, but they are more likely to be as small a number
as possible, existing on the native resources or synthetics, rather then
*expensively* haulling the necessities of life to the planet, just so that
people can live there.

In short, there has to be a good reason for people being where the necessities
of life are not.


-------- TML Message #1959 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1959
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 90 23:39:33 -0600
From: bonnevil@acc.stolaf.edu
Subject: Beyond and TL17 Worlds


Hi there!  I'm a new member of the TML, although I've played Traveller in
its various incarnations for several years.  In catching up on the 
discussions in this group, a couple of questions for y'all came to mind --

Some time ago, there was a discussion about the validity of the Paranoia
Press version of the Beyond map, and the question came up whether Digest
Group had plans in that direction or not.  I don't know either, but
someone who has a copy of the old Beyond map might be able to tell 
something.  In Trav.Digest #20, the Trojan Reach map shows a gov't called
the Florian League in subsector E of the sector which seems to stretch
into subsector H of the Beyond.  If this gov't doesn't exist on the old
PP map, then the Beyond has been totally wiped.  Despite the problems
this might cause (Garonne/Haldensleben was referred to in both GDW's
"Azhanti High Lightning" and as part of PP's "Vanguard Reaches" sector)
this might not be all bad.  The old Vanguard Reaches had _four_ TL17
worlds, three of which were Zhodani clients...in comparison to the single
one in the entire Imperium.

Which brings me to number two -- what's the deal with Sabmyqys?  From what
I understand, there once was an article or reference to them in JTAS, may
it rest in peace. :)  Would somebody *please* clue me in to some info
about them?  I'm very curious about this elusive race who somehow has 
managed to flaunt the apparent fluke of probability that keeps the Imperium
in general at TL16 and below.... :)

Thank you in advance,

- - --Steve
- - -----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Yes, I'm sure the virushi is a very _nice_ being, but I don't think
it'd be a good idea to shake her hand...."

-------- TML Message #1960 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1960
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 90 08:09:44 -0500
From: al646@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (T. L. Hayes)
Subject: Thick Skinned



Here are some additional figures for thickness for spheres and squares.
All of these assume a density of 8 gms/cc.  Obviously the "superdense" will
be higher but that simply makes the skin thinner.  Units should be obvious
but in case they're not - weight in metric tons, tonnage is MT displacement,
radius/side and thickness are centimeters.

 Material multiplier =        1.25 Armor multiplier    =       33.00
 Weight              =     1650.00 Tonnage             =      100.00
 Spheres
 Radius    =      685.61           Thickness =       33.27
 Squares
 Side      =     1105.21           Thickness =       26.81
  
 Material multiplier =        1.00 Armor multiplier    =       33.00
 Weight              =     1320.00 Tonnage             =      100.00
 Spheres
 Radius    =      685.61           Thickness =       26.86
 Squares
 Side      =     1105.21           Thickness =       21.65
  
 Material multiplier =        0.44 Armor multiplier    =       33.00
 Weight              =      580.80 Tonnage             =      100.00
 Spheres
 Radius    =      685.61           Thickness =       12.07
 Squares
 Side      =     1105.21           Thickness =        9.73
  
 Material multiplier =        0.35 Armor multiplier    =       33.00
 Weight              =      462.00 Tonnage             =      100.00
 Spheres
 Radius    =      685.61           Thickness =        9.64
 Squares
 Side      =     1105.21           Thickness =        7.77
  
 Material multiplier =        0.31 Armor multiplier    =       33.00
 Weight              =      409.20 Tonnage             =      100.00
 Spheres
 Radius    =      685.61           Thickness =        8.55
 Squares
 Side      =     1105.21           Thickness =        6.89
  
 Material multiplier =        0.26 Armor multiplier    =       33.00
 Weight              =      343.20 Tonnage             =      100.00
 Spheres
 Radius    =      685.61           Thickness =        7.18
 Squares
 Side      =     1105.21           Thickness =        5.79
  
 Material multiplier =        0.14 Armor multiplier    =       33.00
 Weight              =      184.80 Tonnage             =      100.00
 Spheres
 Radius    =      685.61           Thickness =        3.88
 Squares
 Side      =     1105.21           Thickness =        3.13
  
 Material multiplier =        0.06 Armor multiplier    =       33.00
 Weight              =       79.20 Tonnage             =      100.00
 Spheres
 Radius    =      685.61           Thickness =        1.67
 Squares
 Side      =     1105.21           Thickness =        1.34
  
TLH

- - --
T.L.Hayes                  |
MIT/Lincoln Laboratory     |
Lexington, MA              |

-------- TML Message #1961 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1961
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 90 09:38:58 -0500
Subject: Designs from Scott Kellogg 12/7/90
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!tnc!m0068@uunet.UU.NET (Stephen D Smith)


*********************************************************
I have no access to e-mail so you will not be able to 
reach me very easily and there will be long gaps between
my having access to any comments to any designs or ideas
you might have but I would appreciate it
 
      Scott Kellogg      (703)-836-8352
      1202 S. Washington St. #107
      Alexandria, VA, 22314
*********************************************************
 
Darrian Fixed Wing Air/Raft TL13 "Saab" Class
 
CraftID:  Fixed Wing Air/Raft, TL13, Cr 548626
Hull:     (4/9) Disp=4(w/wings folded) Unload=2.47693, Load=2.7,
          Airframe=STOL Seaplane Simple
Power:    (2/2) .3312 Mw Fusion Dur=23/69
          (2/2) Storage Battery=7 seconds
Loco:     (2/2) Std Grav=3t, Min=75kph, Cruise=225kph, Top=300kph,
          NOE=170, Agility=4
Commo:    Radio=VDist*2
Sensors:  A-EMS=VDist, Headlight*2, ActObjScn=Dif, ActObjPin=Dif
Off/Def:  None
Control:  Computer=0*2, plus 0fib*1, HoloLink*2, Electronic Circuit
          Protection, Aircraft controls=Simple
Accom:    Crew=1 (Pilot) Passenger=1, Simple cockpit*2, Ejection
          Seat*2, Basic life support, sealed cockpit, inertial
          comps, Oxygen tank and mask as backup.
Other:    Fuel=601liters, Cargo=190Kg, an additional 300kg weight
          can be carried but this will adversely effect stall speed
          and emergency landings.
 
Remarks:  The 'Saab' is renouned as the safest air/raft in
operation.
 
    The Darrians have a strong distrust of Grav Vehicles.  When the
Maghiz hit their TL16 planet it fused all the grav modules in
existance.  Their current regulations concerning the building of
grav vehicles stipulates that they must be able to land in the
event of a total electronic systems failure.  The 'Saab' class
air/raft is designed to do just that under any circumstances.  It
has electronic circuit protection as well as a fiber optic backup
computer in case two standard computers fail.  In case of a total
computer and power failure, the craft has simple aircraft controls
to enable an emergency landing as well as a 7 seconds of battery
power.  The craft's unpowered landing speed being 21 meters per
second, it would take 1.9 seconds to bring her to a COMPLETE stop
leaving 5.1 seconds of power to bring her down in a vertical
landing.  Though this may not sound like much, but it really is
quite a long time from a pilot's point of view.  This, coupled with
the inertial compensators to cushion the blow, plus seat belts and
air bags, almost anyone can make a safe landing.
 
    The craft can land in water if necessary.  And as a last resort
when the craft can not land safely, the craft has two ejection
seats.
 
    Two radios are carried in addition to the standard battery
powered Emergency Location Transmitter.  Assuming the main
batteries have not been TOTALLY drained one can easily call for
assistance as the power requirements of the radios is negligable.
 
    Please note.  This is not a standard grav vehicle.  This is a
light aircraft.  It can take off and land like an Air/Raft, but it
can not be expected to fly in anything other than light winds, ie.
11 knots or 20kph.  Normal Air/Rafts would be designed to be
unaffected by air currents.  In contrast, the 'Saab' would catch
the winds like a kite.  Watch out for those take off and landings!
 
    Normally, the 'Saab' will take off and land vertically.  It
will rise clear of obstructions and then the wings unfold. 
Reversing the process for normal landings.  If on water, the wings
do not fold as they contain outriggers similar to the PBY Catalina.
 
    A military variant is available with two outboard wing
hardpoints for 462626 Cr.  Max external load=900kg,
Weight limit for vertical takeoff=490kg w/no internal cargo. 
Standard load=2 neutrino homing missiles.
 
Scott Kellogg
 
    via  Stephen D Smith   USENET: m0068@tnc.UUCP
                           BIX: sdsmith
- - --Name = STEPHEN SMITH  Mailbox # = 68

-------- TML Message #1962 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1962
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 90 10:57:27 EST
From: Dan Corrin <dan@engrg.uwo.ca>
Subject: Hull thickness & Pressure

This is loosely connected with the hull thickness debate:

Assuming an armour 40 hull, how much external pressure can the hull take?

A favourite technique of system defense boats is to sit in a gas giants
upper atmosphere, or underwater on the planet. Just how deep into
each medium can a typically armoured vessel go?

				-Dan

Dan Corrin, System Manager, Mechanical Engineering, UWO, London, Ontario
TML FTP site coordinator:  dan@engrg.uwo.ca   ...!watmath!julian!engrg!dan


-------- TML Message #1963 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1963
Date:     Fri, 7 Dec 90 14:03:23 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  GDW Blues

The fellow whose complaint T.L. Hayes imported from that other list certainly
had some valid points, as far as I am concerned.  I picked up a copy of 2nd
Ed Twilight:2000 in August and haven't had much of a chance to sit down and look
it over.  In fact, I haven't even tried to generate a character.  Until today...

Friends, you know I can deal with complicated systems.  However, the character
generator in 2nd Ed Twilight had me tearing my hair out in a few minutes.  
Can you imagine:  Numerous references to tables at the back of the book without
                  page references

                  4 year career increments (wonder where they got that idea)
                  that generate great characters like the cowardly Ranger who
                  was still a private after 16 years in the army.

                  Complicated character generation worksheet with spaces too
                  small to write in, and covering most, but not *all* things
                  that you need to track.

                  Hit points that allow an average character to take at least
                  4 shots from a .44 magnum pistol in the chest and another 1-2
                  shots in the head without being more than "slightly wounded",
                  which has little game effect.

                  College educations which do not increase your education 
                  statistic, so that if you don't have enough education at the
                  age of 17, you'll never make it to grad school.

Ugh.  If I am reading the book correctly, the average unarmed fighter would
have to kick the average character in the head 11 times to render him 
unconscious.

I don't know about anyone else, but this is massively inconsistent with the
"realistic, gritty" flavor the game seems to be attempting to produce.  The
typical character would only be slightly wounded by a hit in the chest from
a .50cal machine gun.

I have no intention of buying any further 2nd Ed Twilight:2000 products.

Rob Dean

(For anyone thinking about it, don't forget that GDWs two new rpg's,
Cadillacs and Dinosaurs (??) and Dark Conspiracy, will be based on the Twilight
2000 mechanics.)


-------- TML Message #1964 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1964
Date:     Fri, 7 Dec 90 14:16:22 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  GDW Blues, Part II

Forgot to check something.  The Twiglight:2000 character system, as near
as I can tell, produces a character with a minimum age of 25, and an average
age of 35, which doesn't look like a good simulation of military survivors
at the end of a 3-4 year general war to me.

Rob


-------- TML Message #1965 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1965
Date:     Fri, 7 Dec 90 14:38:10 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Implementation TL

I wonder if anyone else out there has any thoughts on a matter which has been
of some concern to me when it comes to handling tech levels.  

Should we give some thought to what the lowest tech level should be that could
implement a technology if they didn't have to discover it?  Many of the low
tech worlds in the Imperium and its near neighbors are either deliberately
\limiting technology, or recovering from disasters of one sort or another, right?

I am tending at the moment to think of TLs as being primarily limits on material
technology.  As a couple of examples--there is no real reason why someone armed
with the proper knowledge could not build a hot air ballon or a man-carrying
glider of some sort in Ancient Greece.  Some applications of gunpowder would
be possible at that level, too, although cannons might not be (I don't recall
whether the Greeks could cast bronze in large quantities).  CPR, a valuable
medical technique, requires no equipment, and could be used by someone in 
a stone-age situation even though it wasn't developed until sometime in TL7
the way the game calculates things.  (Of course, without a hospital and rescue 
squad it might not be quite as valuable...).  The first patent on a hovercraft
was granted in something ridiculous like 1879...power to weight considerations
were the main reason it probably couldn't have been built.

(Speaking of hovercraft...I happended to look up stats on the Navy's LCAC
air cushion landing craft today.  With 10MW worth of engines, it can lift
150 tons, and still amke 50kts--80 or so kph...in MT 10MW will lift 100
tons with nothing left over for thrust)

Anyway...some of the spiffy high tech things might be available at substantially
lower tech levels in a rather clunky form.

Rob


-------- TML Message #1966 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1966
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 90 15:33:48 -0500
Subject: DEsigns from Scott Kellogg 12/8/90
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!tnc!m0068@uunet.UU.NET (Stephen D Smith)


*********************************************************
I have no access to e-mail so you will not be able to 
reach me very easily and there will be long gaps between
my having access to any comments to any designs or ideas
you might have but I would appreciate it
 
      Scott Kellogg      (703)-836-8352
      1202 S. Washington St. #107
      Alexandria, VA, 22314
*********************************************************
 
Fast Cutter TL 15 "Sparrow" Class 
 
CraftID:  Fast Cutter Type YF, TL 15, MCr 37.22122 
Hull:     (45/113) Disp=50, Config=1AF, Armor=40G, Unload=587.303,
          Load=845.711 
Power:    (5/10) 1261.37 Mw Fusion, Dur=10 days @ reduced power 
          (Agility=0) 5 days @ full power. 
Loco:     (8/16), Manuver=6G, Agility=6 NOE=190, Cruise=2835kph,
          Top=3780kph 
Commo:    Radio=System*2, Maser=System*2, RadioJam=System 
Sensors:  EMM, A-EMS=FarOrb, P-EMS=Interstel, EMS-Jam=FarOrb, 
          Densitometer=250m, Neutrino=10kw 
          ActObjScn=Rout          ActObjPin=Rout, 
          PasObjScn=Rout          PasObjPin=Rout, 
          PasEnScn=Simp           PasEnPin=Form 
Off:      HPoints=1 
          Missile=x02 SCaster=x03 
          Batt        1                 1 
          Bear        1                 1 
          Missile and Sand Caster share turret 
Def:      DefDM=+10 
Control:  Computer=2*3, HoloHUD*2, HoloLink*2, 
Accom:    Crew=1, Seat=Roomy*33, Env=Basic Env, Basic is, Extend
          is, Inertial Comp, Grav Plate, Air Lock 
Other:    Cargo=253.68, Missile rack Magazine=.7Kl, Battery Rnd=1
          missile, carries 10 BattRnds, Fuel=60.55Kl ObjSize=Sm,
          EMlevel=Mod (None @ reduced Power) 
 
Remarks:  The 'Sparrow' class cutter is designed for use as an 
auxillury by warships.  Quick transport with a large cargo 
capacity, it is often found shuttleing bettween ships in Imperial
fleets. 
 
Scott Kellogg 
 
    via  Stephen D Smith   USENET: m0068@tnc.UUCP
                           BIX: sdsmith
- - --Name = STEPHEN SMITH  Mailbox # = 68

-------- TML Message #1967 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1967
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 90 23:36:33 -0500
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!tnc!m0068@uunet.uu.net
Subject: Designs from Scott Kellogg 12/9/90

From: m0068@tnc.UUCP (Stephen D Smith)
Organization: personal mailbox at The Next Challenge
 
*********************************************************
I have no access to e-mail so you will not be able to 
reach me very easily and there will be long gaps between
my having access to any comments to any designs or ideas
you might have but I would appreciate it
 
      Scott Kellogg      (703)-836-8352
      1202 S. Washington St. #107
      Alexandria, VA, 22314
*********************************************************
 
Heavy Fighter TL 15 "Talon" Class
 
CraftID:  Heavy Fighter Type HF, TL 15, MCr 194.6841
Hull:     (45/113) Disp=50, Config=1AF, Armor=70G, Unload=2414.314,
          Load=2459.23+external load if any
Power:    (14/28) 3534.48 Mw Fusion, Dur=30 days @ reduced power
          (no laser, Agility=0) 5 days @ full power.
Loco:     (8/16), Manuver=6G, Agility=6 NOE=190, Cruise=2835kph,
          Top=3780kph
Commo:    Radio=System*2, Maser=System*2, RadioJam=System
Sensors:  EMM, A-EMS=FarOrb, P-EMS=Interstel, EMS-Jam=FarOrb,
          Densitometer=250m, Neutrino=10kw
          ActObjScn=Rout          ActObjPin=Rout,
          PasObjScn=Rout          PasObjPin=Rout,
          PasEnScn=Simp           PasEnPin=Form
Off:      Turret HPoints=1
          PLaser=x02  Missile=x02 SCaster=x03
          Batt        1                 1                 1
          Bear        1                 1                 1
          PLaser, Missile, Sand Caster all share turret
          Aircraft Fusilage Hardpoints*5 (Missile=x07)
          Internal bomb bay for 23 tons ordanance.
Def:      DefDM=+17
Control:  Computer=9*3, HoloHUD*2, HoloLink*2,
Accom:    Crew=2, Seat=Roomy*2, Env=Basic Env, Basic is, Extend is,
          Inertial Comp, Grav Plate, Air Lock
Other:    Cargo=23.3, Missile rack Magazine=9.7Kl, Battery Rnd=1
          missile, carries 100 Rnds internal. Fuel=212.07Kl
          ObjSize=Avg, EMlevel=Mod (None @ reduced Power)
 
Remarks:  The 'Talon' class fighter is commonly carried aboard
heavy carriers and other naval vessels.  Occasionally, a ship which
does not ordinarily carry fighters will substitute a 'Talon' for
one of its launches.  The class was designed late in the Fifth
Frontier War after the 'Viper' class escort fighter was deployed
and represents yet another triumph for Naval Architect Dr. Hloch
(The Traveller's Kelly Johnson).  It saw limited action in the war
but distinguished itself in the final battle of Calit{Spinward
Marches 1515} when elements of the Imperial 23rd fleet ambushed and
severely mauled the retreating Zhodani 40th Fleet after their
defeated thrust for Rhylanor{Spinward Marches 2716}.
 
    The 'Talon' has a 23 ton bomb bay installed.  This is usually
empty as are the 5 hardpoints for external ordanance.  Though
unpressureized, the bay, when used is more often used for cargo
when it can carry 23.3Kl.  Alternately, it fuctions as the
fighter's air lock.
 
    The 5 fusilage hardpoints are almost always left empty but can
mount multiple missile racks to carry up to thirty anti-ship
missiles externally.  These racks are then fired off in a manner
similar to the 'Viper' and the 'Indianapolis' fighters in one large
volley as a factor 7 missile battery.
 
Scott Kellogg
 
    via  Stephen D Smith   USENET: m0068@tnc.UUCP
                           BIX: sdsmith
- - --Name = STEPHEN SMITH  Mailbox # = 68

-------- TML Message #1968 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1968
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 90 00:01 EDT
From: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Subject: Re: (1959) Beyond and TL17 worlds


The Beyond and Vanguard Reaches were punted over four years ago, being
as they were horrendously technologically overpowered. The only TL17 world
in existence as of now is the world of Sabmiqys, whose denizens are sentient
robots that make a habit of dissecting visitors to see how they work. (A
recent issue of CHALLENGE had an article on them: disappointingly boring.)

metlay

-------- TML Message #1969 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1969
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 90 9:29:33 GMT
From: Jo Jaquinta <jaymin@maths.tcd.ie>
Subject: TML vehicle design -> TeX translator

	I've written a small C program that takes TML postings and
churns out LaTeX macros for formatting the vehicle designs. They look
quite nice. Unfortunately Scott Kellog puts his descriptions after the
stats which make them impossible to parse but it processes rsdean's with
no problems. When run on my own archives it reaches some 50 pages in
length! Anyone interested please mail me.

	This brings up another idea. Although useful as a reference I find
copious posings of vehicles to the list annoying. What I think would be
a good idea is to have a central repository much like the reputed net-spellbook
for rec.arts.frp. I'd run it but I have to dial in to the UNIX system I use
and couldn't manage it. Any volunteers?

				Jo Jaquinta
				lgrant@maths.tcd.ie

-------- TML Message #1970 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1970
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 90 08:16:53 -0500
From: al646@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (T. L. Hayes)
Subject: Heavenly Bodies!




From: Orcinus orca <jokim@jarthur.Claremont.edu>
John H. Kim says:

>If you're only interested in an occasional eclipse or two,
>it's a great idea.  The impression I got from the original
>letter (I don't save these for much more than a day so I
>can't check) was that he wanted to know what the night sky
>would look like given a certain time and place.  If you use
>T. L. Hayes's simplification for this, you get the boring
>(in my opinion) result of all the planets/moons/suns lined
>up in one line in the sky.  I like to imagine the view at
>Regina as something like the Saturn mosaic JPL released,
>with a moon here and there.  I suppose you could fake it.

On the contrary, Kepler's law does not restrict you from having the planets/
moons inclined to the plane of the orbit of the primary body.  I suggested
it as a simple way to tell where along an orbit the object would lie without
going through detailed astro-mechanical calculations.  A little trig and
knowledge of the inclination would easily allow you to determine the angle
above or below the ecliptic (reference the main planet).  All this assumes 
you really want this much detail but you don't want to spend a lot of time
doing detailed calculations.  To generate a "sky view" simply determine
where all the objects (visible ones) are along their orbits then assuming
you know or have set the angle of inclination and the nodes you can easily
determine the apparent asimuth and elevation of the object of interest.

What you do need to do is make a lot of simplifying assumptions like all the
orbits are circles (so you can tell from the period where along the orbit
the planet is) and none of the orbits (nodes) precess otherwise you may as
well go back to the full calculations using orbital elements.

From: chk@alias (C. Harald Koch)

>> I personally would not like to have my main asteroid defense be how thick
>> my hull was, because there's eventually a bigger asteroid out there with
>> your name on it!
>
>I agree, you still need an active defense system of some sort. However, no
>matter how sophisticated your sensors are, there will be space dust smaller
>than they can detect. There is also a size below which there is no point
>trying to destroy incoming objects because they are too hard to hit.

Perhaps we should install (or assume these are already installed?) a
navigational deflector (like the Enterprise has) based on repulsor technology.
All it does is project a beam of repulsive force (how does it do this I
wonder) in the direction of motion and "sweep" back and forth clearing a
path through the MICRO-meteroids/asteroids.  It would have little effect on
anything of any real size (to prevent if from being used as an extra weapon)
but then things that big are a) rare and b) easy (relatively) to avoid.

TLH

- - --
T.L.Hayes                  |
MIT/Lincoln Laboratory     |
Lexington, MA              |

-------- End of TML Messages --------

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Subject: TML Bundle #159: Msgs 1971-1981
Reply-To: TML Administrator <traveller-request%metolius.wr.tek.com@RELAY.CS.NET>
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Status: RO


-------- TML Message #1971 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1971
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 90 08:17:54 -0500
From: al646@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (T. L. Hayes)
Subject: Trade




From: Vote For NoneOfTheAbove Write In Candidate  06-Dec-1990 1654 <baranski@meridn.enet.dec.COM>

>RE: al646@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (T. L. Hayes) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 07:51:38 -0500
> 
>"Unless the planet can not grow its own food because of its composition or
>atmosphere but turns out to have a fortune if raw materials and is a handy
>place to manufacture things."
>
>My point is that a population will not be someplace where the bulk necessities
>of life do not exist without a ***good*** reason.  Sure, a people may be on a
>planet to exploit a resource, but they are more likely to be as small a number
>as possible, existing on the native resources or synthetics, rather then
>*expensively* haulling the necessities of life to the planet, just so that
>people can live there.
>
>In short, there has to be a good reason for people being where the necessities
>of life are not.

Ok picture it, the Imperium, 1101, the TL Megacorporation discovers a planet 
dripping with raw materials.  Duke Hayes, the president and owner gets the
official governmental OK to exploit the planet for all its worth (I pulled
some strings of course).  The atmosphere is poisonous, the soil is so 
metalic that it won't support any editable plants.  The corporation set up a
colony to mine the planet.  Since its a waste to send empty ships to pick
up the raw material I send full ships!  Ships full of food, water, clothes,
anything I can sell.  This way I get some of the money I'm paying them back
and my ship's make money going *both* ways!  Keep in mind that I am paying
these people a small fortune to live and work here under these conditions.

Because this is a long term project the miners marry and have children or
bring their families with them (for the promise of money "Honey, its only
2 or 3 years then will be rich!" except I'm charging outragous prices for
basic goods and the miners never make much of a profit).  The children
grow up thinking of this as home.  But I'm getting a head of myself.

Once things are going smoothly, I set up manufacturing facilities because
it cheaper to make the stuff here then to export the raw materials.  This
requires more people and more support people to do the mining, manufacturing,
starport services, schools for my employee's children etc, etc.  Boom! Planet
pop is now say 4-5 (not bad).  There is minimum self support because of the
poor conditions for growing food.  Now that there is a starport however those
damnable independant traders start showing up with their cheap foodstuffs and
other supplies so I must lower my import prices to avoid loosing money.  Now
my miners are really begining to make money, tangable money that is.  By now
many have invested many years in the company and this is their home (such as
it is) and they don't want to leave.

By this time I have made a pile of money and maybe others have successfully
petitioned for access to the planet and I loose my monopoly so I start selling
off all the things I own on the planet while it still is a monopoly (mostly).
Some I sell to other corporations, some the my former workers who now live
there.  Since this is now an employee owned operation they can do what they
want but they are unlikely to leave because now they "own their home" in
a manner of speaking.  So more time passes and more children grow up here
thinking of this as home.  Some leave, some don't.  Living is not so hard
now because lots of cities have been built to house all the people.  Doomed
parks and gardens have been created by the people who live there so maybe
some of the food needs can now be met locally (but it is expensive since
you need to purify air and water and probably import the original soil).  
It may still be cheaper to import food especially considering the amount of
money that can be made on the manufactured exports (no over head for pollution
control or the like).

Maybe this is not the best explaination for why a "worthless" planet would
have a sizable population but it shows the idea.  Don't under estimate the
power of the mind to accept "home".  Many people don't leave the places
they were born and raised in even here on Earth today.  Long term projects
will create families and communities that may be totally supported by 
imported products.  Why set up agriculture on a planet you (the megacorp.)
intend to throw away when your done?  For the employees?  Get serious there
are millions of people who will work for these wages!  Let them import food!

TLH

- - --
T.L.Hayes                  |
MIT/Lincoln Laboratory     |
Lexington, MA              |

-------- TML Message #1972 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1972
Date: Monday 10th December 1990 14:29:12 GMT
From: Alan Huscroft <ASSHUSCR@cms.am.cc.reading.ac.uk>
Subject: Re:(1959) Beyond and TL17 Worlds

 
> From: bonnevil@acc.stolaf.edu
 
>             In Trav.Digest #20, the Trojan Reach map shows a gov't called
> the Florian League in subsector E of the sector which seems to stretch
> into subsector H of the Beyond.  If this gov't doesn't exist on the old
> PP map, then the Beyond has been totally wiped.
 
There was no Florian League in PP's version of Beyond.  I haven't looked
at the maps for a while, but I think subsector H was the Darkling Regions,
with little or no large-scale government.  I believe that DGP's Trojan
Reach is more or less completely incompatible with PP's Beyond, and
effectively drives the final nail into the coffin of Paranoia Press.
 
> Which brings me to number two -- what's the deal with Sabmyqys?  From what
> I understand, there once was an article or reference to them in JTAS, may
> it rest in peace. :)  Would somebody *please* clue me in to some info
> about them?  I'm very curious about this elusive race who somehow has
> managed to flaunt the apparent fluke of probability that keeps the Imperium
> in general at TL16 and below.... :)
 
I haven't read this article (in Challenge 28) for a long time, but I
don't think that Sabmiqys was ever a member of the Imperium.  If I
recall correctly, the world was strictly isolationist, and their high
technology was all their own work.  There's no specific reason why
Imperial worlds shouldn't eventually achieve higher tech levels --
they just haven't managed it yet.
 
............................................................................
: Alan Huscroft              : Janet:    A.Huscroft@uk.ac.reading          :
: Reading, England           : Internet: A.Huscroft@reading.ac.uk          :
: 6-G takeoffs AND landings! : X-boat:   A.Huscroft@terra.sol.solomani_rim :
:............................:.............................................:

-------- TML Message #1973 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1973
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 90 20:46:16 -0800
From: George William Herbert <gwh@ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: "Cinematic Nuggets" adventure style


I'm curious as to wether those who have seen Knightfall liked the cinematic
nuggets adventure style.  They sort of make sense to me.  Comments?

- - -george william herbert
gwh@ocf.berkeley.edu

-------- TML Message #1974 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1974
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 90 12:17:54 PST
From: Joel Lovell <jlovell%smdvx1.intel.com@RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: MT stuff For Sale

[I re-sent this mail to the list at large (it was originally sent to
traveller-request) and modified the subject line -- James]

I've got a lot of Mega Traveller stuff for sale.  Mint condition
not even used once.  (I've got everything except the vargr book,
and the vilani book.)

Make me an offer.

Gee, I hope this posts.

Joel

-------- TML Message #1975 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1975
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 90 11:41:33 PST
From: Vote For NoneOfTheAbove Write In Candidate  11-Dec-1990 1400 <baranski@meridn.enet.dec.COM>
Subject: developing unsuitable worlds

RE:: al646@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (T. L. Hayes)
Subject: (1971) Trade

"Ok picture it, the Imperium, 1101, the TL Megacorporation discovers a planet 
dripping with raw materials.  Duke Hayes, the president and owner gets the
official governmental OK to exploit the planet for all its worth (I pulled
some strings of course).  The atmosphere is poisonous, the soil is so 
metalic that it won't support any editable plants.  The corporation set up a
colony to mine the planet.  Since its a waste to send empty ships to pick
up the raw material I send full ships!  Ships full of food, water, clothes,
anything I can sell.  This way I get some of the money I'm paying them back
and my ship's make money going *both* ways!  Keep in mind that I am paying
these people a small fortune to live and work here under these conditions."
 
"Because this is a long term project the miners marry and have children or
bring their families with them (for the promise of money "Honey, its only
2 or 3 years then will be rich!" except I'm charging outragous prices for
basic goods and the miners never make much of a profit).  The children
grow up thinking of this as home.  But I'm getting a head of myself."

   Yes, you will be shipping supplies to the mining colony instead of
   deadheading.  However, I think that you underestimate the amount of cargo
   space available for supplies.  Setting up a colony requires *lots* of
   equipment, and supplies.  Any extra cargo space would be devoted to mining
   and refining equipment.  Once the colony starts producing refined material
   instead of raw material, the amount of cargo space available will drop like
   a rock, yet the colony will be larger and require more supplies.  I duobt
   that there will normally be surplus to create a homey atmosphere, unless the
   place already provides most of the raw requirements of life, so that there
   is room for extra imports.

   As an aside, that kind of equipment do you imagine Traveller has for taking
   raw material, ie water, ice, sand, rock, hydrocarbons, gases, and producing
   air, water, food and fuel?  Or will all of this have to be imported?  I
   don't recall seeing much in this vein in Traveller.  I assume that fusion
   fuel can be refined as on starships, that water can be purified from water
   and ice, and that air can be made from water and oxides.  what about food? 
   I suspect that if synthesized food is possible, it will be de jour in the
   mining colonies.
 
"Once things are going smoothly, I set up manufacturing facilities because
it cheaper to make the stuff here then to export the raw materials.  This
requires more people and more support people to do the mining, manufacturing,
starport services, schools for my employee's children etc, etc.  Boom! Planet
pop is now say 4-5 (not bad).  There is minimum self support because of the
poor conditions for growing food.  Now that there is a starport however those
damnable independant traders start showing up with their cheap foodstuffs and
other supplies so I must lower my import prices to avoid loosing money.  Now
my miners are really begining to make money, tangable money that is.  By now
many have invested many years in the company and this is their home (such as
it is) and they don't want to leave."

   This is about what I consider par for the course for a mining colony to
   eventually develop into an industrial planet.  Either the company will
   specialize in exporting widgets, or framisis's which are always in need on
   the planet will start being made at the colony.

   Also, though, I believe that a large number of young adults will leave the
   place if it does not show promise to them, and go elsewhere.  For a small
   colony this may more then offset any population increase.
 
"By this time I have made a pile of money and maybe others have successfully
petitioned for access to the planet and I loose my monopoly so I start selling
off all the things I own on the planet while it still is a monopoly (mostly).
Some I sell to other corporations, some the my former workers who now live
there.  Since this is now an employee owned operation they can do what they
want but they are unlikely to leave because now they "own their home" in a
manner of speaking.  So more time passes and more children grow up here
thinking of this as home.  Some leave, some don't.  Living is not so hard now
because lots of cities have been built to house all the people.  Doomed parks
and gardens have been created by the people who live there so maybe some of the
food needs can now be met locally (but it is expensive since you need to purify
air and water and probably import the original soil).   It may still be cheaper
to import food especially considering the amount of money that can be made on
the manufactured exports (no over head for pollution control or the like)."

   As long as the basics of life can be produced on the planet, inculding
   synthesized food for the lower masses.
 
"Maybe this is not the best explaination for why a "worthless" planet would
have a sizable population but it shows the idea.  Don't under estimate the
power of the mind to accept "home".  Many people don't leave the places
they were born and raised in even here on Earth today.  Long term projects
will create families and communities that may be totally supported by 
imported products.  Why set up agriculture on a planet you (the megacorp.)
intend to throw away when your done?  For the employees?  Get serious there
are millions of people who will work for these wages!  Let them import food!"

   It's a plausible scenario, given some premises.  How common will it be,
   though?  I believe tht it will only take place on the most favorable
   planets.  As with current development, the best places will be developed
   first, ie the planets that already have some of the resources needed.
 
TLH
 
Jim.

-------- TML Message #1976 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1976
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 90 14:35:10 -0600
From: bonnevil@acc.stolaf.edu
Subject: Messed up sector map in archives?


Hello again!  Thanks to those of you who answered my post concerning
"The Beyond and TL17 Worlds" from a few days back.  I suspected that
the PP stuff was totally booted....

I was looking at the sector maps from the sunbane ftp archive the other
day, and out of curiosity downloaded the Trojan Reach map.  I think it
might be, well, wrong.  The bases, allegiance, port, and gas giant
codes look ok, but the UWPs conflict w/ published subsectors. For example:
  *ARCHIVE COPY*
 [unnamed] 1209 X336855-0          R 410 Na  G3V
  *Adv. 4: LEVIATHAN / Travellers Digest 20*
  985-373  1209 X775000-0            020 Na  K6V M3D
The other maps I've seen seem to be more or less ok, but I can't check most.
Ummm...just thought I'd point this out for those of you who might be
interested.

- - --Steve

-------- TML Message #1977 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1977
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 90 15:46 EDT
From: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Subject: Grant and Co. Ride Again! (fiction)


To blow off a little steam while I wait for a batch job to finish
(And to satisfy the curiosity of those who've been asking):

- - -------------------------------------------------------------------------

Muan Gwi, in the Vegan Autonomous District: mid-1118

	"All stations report in. Kherkhoulloth?"
	"Navigational systems nominal. Coming in on the beam."
	"Let me know when we hit the atmosphere. Sanchez?"
	"Maneuver drives running a little hot, sir, but within tolerances. 
It's the brown sugar caked in the intakes again, I think."
	"Brown sugar....." *groan* "Whose idea WAS that, anyway?"
	"Uh, mine, sir. But you said it was the only way we could turn a 
profit on that fiasco with the sugar syrup and the plastic Buddhas...."
	"Yeah, yeah, all right. Taken as read, for the record. But if I ever 
get my hands on the idiot who designed this stupid universe, I may very well
strangle him. O'Connor?"
	"Nothing on the deep scans, sir. Atmosphere's impenetrable. You're 
going to be flying nearly blind."
	"I'm aware of that. Jaeger?"
	"Sitting pretty, Captain. Nothing to shoot at."
	"Good, let's hope it stays that way. Kherk?"
	"Atmosphere in twenty seconds, sir."
	"OK, from what I've heard it's likely to be a little rough. All hands 
strap in and cross fingers. AirSpace Traffic Control, this is IMSS Serendipity 
on final approach, over."
	Skkkkrkkkk. Frrssss. "..rendipity, this is......ol. Your sig.....
ery weak, but we think.....ollow the beam, and follow all or....as......"
Static.
	"Damn. What the hell kind of a soup are we-- JEEZUS!"
	"Hey, what the--"
	"MOTHER OF GOD!"
	"Captain, what's--"
	"KAE, KAKH TSAKHA! Samshkarkh knaervaerrgh ROUKH!"
	"EVERYONE SHUT UP, GODDAMMIT! Kherk--whoof-- is this the ATMOSPHERE?"
	"You-urkgh-- you got it, Captain. Jet stream's over 300 per, methane 
ammonia and all kinds of nifty pertrochemicals!"
	"Serendi.....affic Con....urn thirty degrees to...." Skkkrrkkkk.
	"REPEAT, DAMMIT! This is Serendipity. We are flying blind. Radar 
reading false-- whunkh!-- your signal's badly broken up! REPEAT!"
	"It's like the front door of Hell out there!"
	"Kherk, where's the Goddamned BEAM?"
	"Trying, sir! Tracking, tracking, AH! We're way off! Forty degrees and 
diverging... Steer port-- erf!-- fifty degrees, throttle back and try to keep
the nose up!" 
	"Doing my best...."
	"Sir, O'Connor here. Scans are reading some pretty nasty terrain down 
there, when--mmp-- they can see anything at all. We're going to hit hard if
ASTC doesn't know their stuff." 
	Skkrrkklklssss. "Serendipity, this is Ymir ASTC. We are locked on you 
via meson commo, and have you on screen, over."
	"Thank God! ASTC, this is Serendipity. We are still blind, but are 
attempting to get back on your beam...."
	"Negative, NEGATIVE ON THAT! Climb to five thousand meters and hold 
your course, NOW!"
	"Sanchez, hit the--ungh!-- kicker! I can't get the nose up!"
	"No can do, sir! We're redlining as it is-- if I hit the kicker we're
going to split open like a firecracker!"
	"ASTC, Serendipity here! We can not, repeat, NOT gain altitude!"
	"Oh my GOD... Serendipity, what's your hull configuration?"
	"Modified disk... why?"
	"On my signal, ROLL NINETY DEGREES! You're headed for a MOUNTAIN PASS!"
	"Ninety degrees, aye-aye!"
	"Sir, I-- KYAIIIII!"
	"ROLL, SERENDIPITY! NOW!"
	*******KRRRRAAAANNNNNNNGGGGGGG!*************

	"HUH!" Grant sat bolt upright in bed, shaking in a cold sweat. He 
wiped a damp hand across his eyes in the darkness, and wearily got out of bed. 
Damn nightmares, he thought disgustedly, staggering into the bathroom.

	"Are you all right, Captain?" Hector's voice held a carefully 
developed note of concern as Grant clambered up the ramp onto the Bridge.
"You aren't due to be awakened for another half hour...."
	"I'm fine, Hector," Grant said with a sigh, sitting down at the helm 
position. "I woke up early, that's all."
	Sanchez pulled his head and upper body out of a nearby maintainance
panel and surveyed Grant carefully. He was clean-shaven and shipshape, as 
always, but his eyes were red and shadowed. Sanchez shook his head as he 
closed up the panel.
	"Dreaming about Ymir again, Skipper?"
	Grant jerked as if shot, then settled into his chair with a short 
laugh. "That predictable, am I?"
	"I've known you for nigh on twenty years, Skipper," Sanchez shrugged. 
"From Ascalon to Easter, there's nothing like Ymir for a helmsman in the 
Suleiman Cluster to practice on. Two decades, most of 'em in space, and only 
one crash landing? You ought to be a little more forgiving of yourself."
	"I try, Wu-Shun, I really do," Grant grimaced, flipping through the
cargo manifests for the hundredth time. "But that one mistake-- all the damage 
it did.... it really shook me up."
	"Damage? You tore off one hardpoint, wrecked the deep radar, mangled 
part of one pressure compartment and cracked the main zuchais. Minor injuries 
to two crew, no deaths or disabilities. Not bad for a bankshot off of a 
mountain!" 
	"I never should've tried to fly her again. That misjump...."
	"We got a tow to Upirzanu, didn't we? The Serendipity turned out to be 
stolen goods, didn't it? The Navy and Hortalez honored our contracts, and we 
got a new ship, a BETTER ship, didn't we? How many places could things have 
gone wrong! We could be dead, or in prison, or we could've run into something 
even worse than what we've seen already!"
	"Worse than what we've seen already?" Kherkhoulloth came in, yawning 
and running a hand through his black mane of still-damp fur. "We've crawled 
through the guts of Arcodiga, stopped a war on Easter, stopped another war
on Gwathui--"
	"Not yet, we haven't," Grant said mildly. "That's the Navy's job. We 
just gave them the goods they needed to do it."
	"Minor point," the irrepressible Vargr laughed, hopping into the 
Navigator's chair and lighting up the holodyne in a dimmed pattern of reds and 
browns well-suited to his eyes. "We've delivered treaties, been bombed halfway 
to the Ancients, bounced off a mountain--"
	"This is where I came in," Grant groaned.
	"And managed to keep our homocidal Solomani-hating cybernetic death 
machine and our government-toppling movie director from getting us all 
killed," Kherkhoulloth finished with relish.
	"I heard that," O'Connor's voice came over the intercom.
	"So did I," echoed Jaeger's voice. "Captain, you up?"
	"Right here," Grant smiled. "Nice to know I'm the last one out of 
bed."
	"Not quite," Hector's voice interrupted him. "Doctor Fell is still 
asleep. He is not scheduled to take his station until fifteen minutes from 
now."
	"He'll never make it," Kherkhoulloth sighed.
	"He'll make it," Jaeger's voice replied evenly. "He won't smell very 
nice and he may not be dressed, but he'll make it. I don't know where you
find these types, Captain."
	Grant finished flipping through the manifests. "Fell's a good man," he 
said mildly. "He needed our help and we needed his. Anyone have any complaints 
about the way he does his job?"
	"He's a loose cannon, Captain," O'Connor's voice held the barest hint 
of annoyance. "He's used to acting on his own, and he doesn't think through 
his options before doing dangerous and irreparable things."
	"Not all of us have a Model 2fib in our frontal lobe, O'Connor," 
Kherkhoulloth snarled. "Come on, give him a break!"
	"Do YOU trust him, Kherkhoulloth?"
	"Of course not," Kherkoulloth shrugged. "I don't trust ANYONE. But the 
point stands: I don't know what you were driving at when I walked in, Sanchez.
We've seen more weird crap since we shipped out together than any of us has 
seen in a decade or more-- everything from religious riots on Vega to trying 
to sell maple syrup and plastic Buddhas in a war zone. What do you mean,
something even WORSE could happen to us?"
	Sanchez glowered at him. "Hi ho," he muttered darkly.
	That shut Kherkhoulloth up. Along with everyone else. 
	"Good morning, all!" The iris valve to the Bridge opened and admitted 
Fell, who tossed a lank swath of dark hair back over his bald spot and took 
his place at an empty holodyne with a pleasant nod to Sanchez, who slapped him 
on the back as he left the Bridge for Engineering. "I trust I'm not late?"
	"Right on time, Christoph," Grant nodded. "Try to get ASTC on the 
horn. We're ready to take berthing; and I'll try not to do a repeat of Ymir 
this time."
	"You always say that before each landing," Fell frowned. "One of these 
days, I'd like to hear exactly what happened on Ymir...."
	"Not while he's at the helm," Jaeger's voice came suddenly. "We'll 
settle in at a bar once we're down, and we'll tell you all about it...."

- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm mailing these off and deleting them as I go, folks, so keep track of them 
if you're curious about continuity. I do NOT have the first story, with the
Hi ho reference in it, and neither does Dow (Grant). I don't think that
either of the two gents who'll be joining the TML soon-- Alex Wilce (Fell)
or Paul Reilly (O'Connor)-- do, either. Anyone?

[TML Archive Message Number 716 and 740 are the first two parts to this
story -- 740 contains the "Hi ho" reference.  TML Bundle numbers are #65
for AMN 716, and #70 for AMN 740.  Archives are available via anonymous
ftp from sunbane.engrg.uwo.edu (129.100.4.12), via email from
archive-server@atherton.com, or from traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com
*** James]

metlay

-------- TML Message #1978 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1978
From: plb@violin.att.COM
Subject: Swapping stories... <eh?>
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 90 15:55:58 EST

Operating System: HP-UX A.B7.00 U
Organization: AT&T-BL, Red Hill System Administration Group (HRSAG)
Location: HR 2C119
Phone: (201) 615-4419
Return-receipt:
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL5]

Since Metlay descided to post that portion of a novel, I suppose I
can get away with posting an outtake of a story I've been in the
process of writing for a while now... Chapter 1:

					* * * * * * * * 


They were in a festive mood.  Then again, they were always in a
festive mood.   The sounds of a loud party filtered throughout the
yacht as did the smells of good food, and the slight reek of
alchohol.  Noone was watching the instruments on the bridge.  If
they were, they would have seen the larger ship approaching.  

Slightly more than twice the size of the yacht, it approached
noiselessly.  A beeping emmitted from the collision avoidance
system and the on duty helmsman woke up long enough from his nap to
stab a finger at a button to silence it.

The yellow indicators turned red as the larger vessel closed, drew
along side and established a parallel course that paced the
yacht. The revelers had no idea of the danger that approached.

The duty helmsman shifted in his chair slightly, adjusted the hat
over his eyes better to close out the light and began to snore. 

In the cargo area, by the main airlock, a steward's assistant was
removing bottles of wine from a rack.  He spotted one of the
engineering lackies climbing down a companionway.  "The stuff we
stowed for you guys is over th..." A silenced weapon spoke once and
the steward was thrown back, a bottle smashed, and a puzzled look
came over his face.  His mouth tried to form a question that was
never uttered as blood gushed forth from where an eye was supposed
to exist.  His now lifeless body slid to the deck.

The engineering hand removed a panel from the wall, cut three
wires, and removed a module.  Moments later, the airlock opened and
six individuals of various races entered.  One tossed the engineer
a submachinegun and a bandolier and three of them went to the turbo
lift.   The remaining four went aft.

In the main gallery, the party was going strong.  Drink flowed
freely and food was consumed in obscene quantities. 

In the center of the maelstrom of activity was a rather bored and
rather disgustedlooking young man of fifteen.  
In his lifetime he'd seen his eldersas well as his older cousins act 
in this manner and vowed when it was his turn to take the reigns of
power from his father, this sort of activity would not be at the
expense of the estate his father would leave him as it was now.
"No," he thought to himself, "my aunts, uncles, and cousins just
sponge off my dad, and he lets them!"  "Have some wine Derek!"
shouted his uncle Jarns, "you're old enough now!"  

At that moment the loud staccato of firecrackers was to be heard
from a passageway.  The partiers were stunned into silence.  The
bodyguards that were assigned to Derek closed distance with him and
grew very alert.  

With the dying of the last echos from the firecrackers came the
three maurauders wielding their weapons.  One of Derek's guards
attempted to draw a weapon from inside his tunic.  The other placed
himself as a human sheild between Derek and the intruders.  If
anyone had been watching the forehead of the guard drawing his
weapon they would have seen a red dot of light appear a fraction of
a second before the 9mm slugs from a four shot burst arrived.  Two
of them striking the guard and the other two spending themselves on
the wood clad walls on the other side of the gallery.  One of the
other intruders also fired a four shot burst at the guard who was
playing human sheild.  All four of these rounds found flesh to bite
 into, as one round impacted the base of the man's skull.  The face
of this guard exploded in a shower of blood that spattered over
some of the guests resulting in a terrified hysterical screaming
from one lady in particular.  

The now dead bodyguards crumpled to the floor leaving Derek
standing more or less alone.  One of the shooters asked the third
individual "is that the boy?"  A nod and they grabbed him and
pulled him effortlessly in spite of his struggles to the doorway.

"I am Lieutenant Drazin of the Solvanian Freedom Party " intoned
the being who had not untill this point done any of the shooting.
"I expect and will recieve your full cooperation " he went on "or
more of you could end up as these did..."  

The the engineering assistant and one of the other boarders
appeared at the doorway.  Drazin looked at the engineer and he
nodded.  "I have taken the liberty of having all doors, hatches,
and turbolifts locked so you won't be strolling around the ship.
Please make yourselves comfortable, young Derek Thalman the second
will be coming with us.  Feel free to continue your birthday party
for him, if everything goes as I expect he will celebrate many more!"

They left at that, taking Derek with them.  After a few minutes,
the more bold of the guests tried to open the sliding damage
control hatch in the passageway.  It was, as promised, locked tight.
Someone tried to overide it at a terminal in the main gallery.

Unnoticed at first, hydrogen gas and an accelerant were pouring in
through the life support ventilators.

The privateer vessel "Wraith" was pulling away from the yacht.
Drazin and an older greying human were watching it get smaller in
the viewport.  

On the yacht, within the central ductwork of the life support
ventilation system a greyish blob with a timing device on it had
been left behind by the boarding party.  At the predetermined
moment in time an electrical current passed through the blob a
white-hot ball of expanding gasses were created.  This ignited the
now explosive mixture of hydrogen gas and air.

>From their places on board the privateer, Drazin and his commanding
officer watched as the yacht became a silently expanding fireball
and scattered debris.  "Is our guest comfortably situated?"  "Yes
General"  "Good, the first phase of our plans are complete.  Let us
hope that the elder Thalman is as reasonable as we expect him to
be."



- - -- 
Peter L. Berghold | TELEPHONE: +1 (908) 615-4419
- - ------------------+---------------------------------------------------
EMAIL ADDRESSES:   BIX - PETEB  COMPU$ERVE - 70152,3017 
FAX (908) 706-2004 DELPHI - BERGHOLD GENIE - PBERGHOLD

-------- TML Message #1979 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1979
Date: Thursday 13th December 1990 10:08:59 GMT
From: Alan Huscroft <ASSHUSCR@cms.am.cc.reading.ac.uk>
Subject: Re:(1976) Messed up sector map in archives?

 
> From: bonnevil@acc.stolaf.edu
>
> I was looking at the sector maps from the sunbane ftp archive the other
> day, and out of curiosity downloaded the Trojan Reach map.  I think it
> might be, well, wrong.  The bases, allegiance, port, and gas giant
> codes look ok, but the UWPs conflict w/ published subsectors. For example:
>   *ARCHIVE COPY*
>  [unnamed] 1209 X336855-0          R 410 Na  G3V
>   *Adv. 4: LEVIATHAN / Travellers Digest 20*
>   985-373  1209 X775000-0            020 Na  K6V M3D
> The other maps I've seen seem to be more or less ok, but I can't check most.
> Ummm...just thought I'd point this out for those of you who might be
> interested.
 
Hmm... does anyone know how widespread these discrepancies are?
I suspect the data in the archives were early drafts.  It's possible
that the folks at DGP forgot about the data in Leviathan when they
were originally working out the Trojan Reach and corrected it later
when it was published in the Digest.  The base/allegiance/port/giant
codes would be correct because they were taken from the Atlas of the
Imperium.  If this is true then the problem should be isolated to
the 2 subsectors that were published in Leviathan.
 
Can anyone confirm this?
 
............................................................................
: Alan Huscroft              : Janet:    A.Huscroft@uk.ac.reading          :
: Reading, England           : Internet: A.Huscroft@reading.ac.uk          :
: 6-G takeoffs AND landings! : X-boat:   A.Huscroft@terra.sol.solomani_rim :
:............................:.............................................:

-------- TML Message #1980 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1980
Date: Thursday 13th December 1990 10:34:04 GMT
From: Alan Huscroft <ASSHUSCR@cms.am.cc.reading.ac.uk>
Subject: Archive for vehicle designs

 
> From: Jo Jaquinta <jaymin@maths.tcd.ie>
>
> 	This brings up another idea. Although useful as a reference I find
> copious posings of vehicles to the list annoying. What I think would be
> a good idea is to have a central repository much like the reputed
> net-spellbook
> for rec.arts.frp. I'd run it but I have to dial in to the UNIX system I use
> and couldn't manage it. Any volunteers?
 
I thought there was already an anonymous ftp repository for vehicle
designs at ocf.berkeley.edu .  Has something happened to this while
I wasn't looking?
 
............................................................................
: Alan Huscroft              : Janet:    A.Huscroft@uk.ac.reading          :
: Reading, England           : Internet: A.Huscroft@reading.ac.uk          :
: 6-G takeoffs AND landings! : X-boat:   A.Huscroft@terra.sol.solomani_rim :
:............................:.............................................:

-------- TML Message #1981 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1981
Date: 13 Dec 90 14:43 EST
From: IAGDGP@AESD.dnet.ge.COM
Subject: start of Trav magic sys, long!

I started this a few years ago and then quit when the local group 
broke up. If there was some correspondence about it though I might
be tempted to complete it, or work with someone else to.

Doug Prosser
GE/aesd Utica Ny
D.PROSSER1 on GEnie



		A Magic (Mana) System for Traveller


1) Add a mana stat (1-6) to each Planetary Profile

2) Let a period be the world's day / mana stat 
	Example: Terra 24 hrs/ 1 = 24 hour period 

3) Each Magic User gets his (Endurance * 10) per period in mana points

4) Magic Users start training at age 14 and may learn no new spells 
   after initial training unless they return to their home world for
   6 months / spell learned

5) All MUs use the following table for prior service:

	Enlistment				9+
	DM +1 / Mana level of Homeworld
	DM +1 INT 9+

	Survival				10+     *
	DM +1 / Mana level of Homeworld
	DM +1 / Terms served

	Position				9+
	DM +1 INT 10+
	DM +1 END 11+

	Promotion				10+
	DM +1 INT 9+

	Reenlist (terms 2-5)			6+	Manadatory if made !
	Reenlist (terms 6+)			12+	Manadatory if made !
	DM +1 INT 9+

* IE low mana level worlds have few old Magic Users


6) Position is used by the player later in the campaign to call on help
   from his magic guild. The higher the position the better the chance of
   help and the more difficult the task the less chance for help. The 
   decision to help the PC is strictly in the hands of the GM using the
   above guidelines. The positions are:

	Rank	Name		Benefits if any

	1	Novice
	2	Apprentice
	3	Acolyte		Aid spell (share mana)
	4	Journeyman
	5	Adept
	6	Master

7) So far 6 catagories of mage are defined, this is by no means an 
   exhaustive list ! Feel free to add to it in the spirit it is presented
   and in scope of the Traveller game. The six catagories and their 
   automatic bonuses are ( all get magic skill):

	Dancer		Dex+1
	Chanter		IQ+1
	Charmer		Soc+1
	Summoner	"Demon" Lore
	Iconist		Magic Lore
	Generalist	Any 1 of Above


   Additionally there are special limitations for each class:

Chanters always act at the end of the combat round because their spells
require an incantation or song (Exception see spell FAST CHANT).

Dancers/Charmers are inherently (genetically) magic beings and must come
from a Mana-3 world (or higher).

Iconists' magic is always via a focus (Icon)
	Examples: Runes, Charms, Jewels, etc
	From Literature: The Blue Adept

Some Summoner spells cost IQ loss if failed !

Generalists are the true wizards (Jack-O-T) of this system. If a Generalist
takes a spell from another track (s)he performs it a 1 level lower.

^L		Service Skills Tables
Personal Development
  Chanter       Dancer       Charmer      Iconist      Summoner     Generalist

1 +1 IQ         +1 DEX       +1 SOC       +1 IQ        +1 IQ        +1 IQ
2 Singing       +1 STR       +1 Reaction  Magic Item#  Spell Res.   Spell Res.
3 Oratory       Dancing      Carousing    Rune Book    Familiar $   LibrarySci
4 Spell Res.    +1 DEX       Streetwise   +1 IQ        +1 END       +1 IQ
5 +1 END        +1 END       Gambling     +1 EDU       +1 EDU       +1 EDU
6 Scroll #      Martial Arts Any Rogue PD +1 save vs   +1 save vs   Any other
                                          Icon Magic   summoned     pers. dev

Service Skills
  Chanter       Dancer       Charmer      Iconist      Summoner     Generalist
1 Magic Writing Pers. Dance  Medical      Make Icon*   Control*Beast+1MagicRoll
2 +1 EDU        Sculpture    Liaison      +1 EDU       Familiar     Spell Res.
3 Language      Martial Arts Healing *    Magic Item#  Beast Friend +1 INT
4 Forgery       +1 DEX       Charm Person*Detect Magic* +1 EDU      +1 EDU
5 Blast*        Blast*       Blast*       Blast*$      Blast*       Blast*
6 +1 END        +1 STR       +1 SOC       +1 EDU       Familiar     Any SS


Advanced Education Table 1
  Chanter       Dancer       Charmer      Iconist      Summoner     Generalist
1 Incantation   Dance Lore   Instruction  Icon Lore    Demon Lore   Instruction
      Study
2 Spell Shield* Phase Dance* Disquise     Mask of   *  Speak W/Dead*Alchemy
                                          Disquise
3 Staff #       Dance Study  Infatuation* Spell Shield*AnimateBones* Know Lie*
4 Reverse Spell*Pick Locks   Pick Pockets Detect Icon* Xfer END $   Alchemy
5 DetectMagic* Detect Magic*Detect Magic*Detect Magic* DetectMagic*DetectMagic*
6 Fast Chant $ Seduction     Curse *      Remove Icon* Heal Self *  any AE1

Advanced Education Table 2 (EDU 8+ only !)
  Chanter       Dancer       Charmer      Iconist      Summoner     Generalist



-------- End of TML Messages --------


-------- TML Message #1982 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1982
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 90 20:21 EDT
From: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Subject: Grant and Co. Part 4: The Plot Sickens



Muan Gwi, in the Vegan Autonomous District: late 1118

	He was tired. The exhaustion fogged everything, made images and 
memories somehow hazy and indistinct. They drifted past him, flashes of color 
and life, close enough to touch if only he had the strength....
	"Captain Khagariilian Grant?"
	"Yes?" Grant looked up from the landing strut he was inspecting. A man 
in his mid-forties or so was standing there, wrapped in a black coat against 
the chill wind of the Muan Gwi plateau. He held a small briefcase in one hand, 
and the other was extended for a handshake. Grant took the hand, cautiously.
	"He's clean, sir," came O'Connor's voice in his ear. "I scanned him
from the ship. There's a shotgun in his briefcase, but he can't trigger it
from the outside."
	Grant nodded. "What can I do for you, Mister....?"
	"Cameron." The man flashed a winning, perfect smile. "J. J. Cameron,
Ling Standard Products. Might I have a few moments of your time? I have a 
business proposition that you might find very interesting."
	What is your name?
	The voice intruded on the memory, blotting it out.
	Go away, he said wearily. I was remembering.
	What were you remembering?
	He frowned, or tried to. I don't remember, he thought. Why not?
	What is your name?
	He struggled for a moment, then answered. Grant?
	No good. Turn up the gain another point, he's almost there....
	Grant's mind crackled like a candle in rain and went out.

	"Have you ever heard of Dag, Captain?" Cameron poured a glass of water 
for himself and handed the pitcher to Grant. 
	"Dag? Nope, not offhand," Grant said mildly, pouring a sip for 
himself. He looked around the conference table. "Any of you?"
	"Not me," Jaeger said mildly, accepting the pitcher.
	"Nor me," Kherkhoulloth said, stuffing another fistful of canapes into 
his mouth and chewing vigorously.
	O'Connor was silent, thoughtful.
	"I'm not familiar with the word either," Fell muttered, grabbing the 
canape plate from in front of Kherkhoulloth. "GIVE me those, you philistine!"
	"Sanchez?"
	I know. I know! I know that I know. At least I think I know. Do I 
know? I don't know WHAT I know any more. It's so confusing....
	"Hmm? Oh, well, I know what *I* mean when I say 'Dag,' but I doubt 
that's what Mr. Cameron means....Dag is a kind of electrical insulation for 
vacuum-sealed high-current devices. It's sort of a blackish-grey gunk, kind
of like modeling putty. You dilute it with ethanol and paint it on, and it 
dries to a film...."
	"That's the stuff I mean, Mr. Sanchez," Cameron nodded. "There are 
thousands of different uses for Dag in the Imperium, and thousands of 
different formulations to meet those uses. Most of them have been around for 
centuries, and all of them are public-domain. Nobody's bothered to try to 
patent a new form of Dag since the Third Frontier War or thereabouts; there 
simply hasn't been a market for it." Cameron leaned forward across the table 
earnestly. "What would you say if I told you that a chemical engineering firm 
is preparing to issue a radical new Dag formulation that could drastically 
alter the way in which Jump drives are constructed?"
	Yow! What a concept! A new kind of Dag....
	Good evening, and welcome to another episode of This Old Starship, 
with your host, Wu-Shun Sanchez. Hello, I'm Wu-Shun Sanchez, and welcome to 
the show. Tonight, we're going to see what we can do about cleaning up this 
crufty old Jump drive. We'll need our basic tools, some ethanol and Dag
							and Dag
						and Dag
					and Dag
				and Dag
			Dag
		Dag
	Dag
	What is your name?
	TerraDag.
	No, that's the answer to the SECOND question....
	Blue. I think. Or maybe pink.
	That's the THIRD question. Focus! What is your NAME?
	I don't know. Do I have one?
	Yes. Learn!

	"TerraDag." Sniff. Sniff. Smells like he's telling the truth....
"Funny name for it...."
	"That's only our codemark for it, Mister, er, Kirkowloth." Kae! What 
pus-awful pronounciation. Humans! "We don't know what its makers call it. In 
fact, we don't know anything at all about it, other than the fact that it 
reportedly exists, and that the place that manufactured it was located on 
Terra." 
	Terra? Kakh TSAKHA! No go, bro. No no no! No way. I didn't ship 
halfway across the Universe to hobnob with my genetic predecessors and 
eighteenth cousins....
	"Acheson Chemicals, the company that manufactures most of the Dag 
formulations currently in use in the Solomani Rim, was reportedly quite close 
to a breakthrough at the time of the Solomani invasion. They later claimed 
that the experiments were failures, but sources close to the lab think 
otherwise. We need to make sure."
	"Why?" All this fuss over some black gunk. Go figure.
	"Because if it does exist and the Solomani have it, then the Imperium 
must have it as well. Even little things like a new Dag formula can mean big 
differences in military buildup and resupply. Suppose this stuff DOES allow 
them to refit damaged ships faster than we? Then what?"
	"Then it's strategically important to learn about it for sure." I 
smell money here all of a sudden....
	"Precisely. Which brings us to the matter of payment." KA-CHING!
	"If you come back with evidence of the new Dag's existence, you'll be 
granted a free voucher for your next annual maintainance check at any starport 
with a Ling Standard shipyard. For greater degrees of success than that, the 
pay scale slides upward accordingly." Hrrrrr. Annual maintainance, on a ship 
like the Torch, comes to-- whoa! Carefully now, don't let this fish off the 
hook....
	"Um, what would we get for a, er, a COMPLETE success?"
	"Well, I'd define that as being a sample of the new Dag, or notes on 
how to make it, along with a reasonable idea of the Solomani's knowledge of 
what it is and can do, or lack thereof. If the overall picture were favorable 
enough, I could probably write up a Form 662 as part of the 'reasonable 
expenditures' for this mission, and send it off to Hortalez et Cie...."
	"A F-F-Form Six S-Sixty Two?" Sniff. Whew! What's got into the Captain 
all of a sudden? He's sweating like a Bwap! "You're not SERIOUS!"
	"Of course I am, Captain. This is a risky job; it should carry the 
largest practical reward if well done."
	"'Scuse me, but for the ignorant among us, what's a 'Form 662'?"
	"A lien forgiveness. He's saying he'll pay off our lien on the SHIP!"
	"Say WHAT?"
	Roukh! That's worth over, uh, hmm, uh, SIXTY MILLION CR--
	What is your name?
	Kherkhoulloth. Now where was I? Remortgage the ship, and--
	WRONG ANSWER.
	Shut up. Remortgage the ship, and with the money we could-- could--
	Turning it up another two points.
	Be careful. This isn't a human you're dealing with here.
	<snicker> It isn't much of a Vargr, either.
	HEY! What's the idea? What are you doing to me? Where am I?
	What is your name?
	Kher-- Kh-- Kh-- Mama! I feel sick! MAMA!
	What is your name?
	MAAMAAAAAAAAA!
	What is your name?
	...
	What is your name?
	...
	WHAT IS YOUR NAME?
	Snarl. Grit. Spit. Name? Name. Name--
	Tsssssssohhhhhhhhhhhhhh-- GUKH!

	"How's this one sound," Grant said, shuffling through the papers on 
his lap. Selecting one, he began to read aloud. "Captain James Hudson. 
Smuggler and small-package trader, skipper of the IMSS Inexplicable. Runs 
drugs, guns and occasional refugees back and forth across the Frontier with 
the Solomani. Not well-known, and likes it that way; on Terra to scope out new 
connections." He looked up at Jaeger. "OK?"
	"Very nice." A sharp one, our Captain. Leaves his own story flexible 
enough to include us all. He could've been something, without that damned 
ethical streak. Speaking of which.... "How's his profile compare with yours?"
	Grant shifted uncomfortably. "He's, uh, well, he's sort of what I 
think I would've become if I'd had a rougher start and a few more bad breaks."
	"Excellent." This is going to be fun, after all.
	Fell finished jotting notes with a flourish. "Hristos von Newton, 
small package broker, pickpocket, cardsharp and second-story man. Utterly 
without scruples or loyalties, other than to himself or to money." He looked 
thoughtfully over at Grant, and began to write some more. "Why does he stick 
with, ah, Hudson? Hmmm. Not loyalty, that's for sure. Perhaps mobility? Yes.
Mobility and availability of useful cash flow and muscle. A good base of 
operations. Yes. Yes. It'll work...." His voice trailed off and he continued 
scribbling.
	Kherkhoulloth looked over the neat lines of script, and sighed. "Not a 
lot can be done to hide a Vargr in the Rim, but maybe if I go on the mental 
end of things it'll turn out OK...." He cleared his throat. "Tsogukh. He's an
ex-Corsair and Imperial Marine, discharged dishonorably for excessive cruelty 
to prisoners of war in the Fifth Conflict. A grunt-- reckless, tough, and mean 
as the Ancients." He chuckled weakly. "That oughta get me killed well enough."
	"What'll we do for a navigator?"
	"Oh, he does that as a hobby. Self-taught."
	"Eesh." Where does he come UP with these things?
	"I've got Chief Engineer Edison, obsessive-compulsive gearhead and 
certified cybersicko," Sanchez chuckled.
	"I thought we were trying to be DIFFERENT," Fell grinned.
	Sanchez returned the smile. "If you think I'M bad, wait'll you meet 
this guy! He talks in subsections and paragraphs rather than sentences...."
	"I think I'm going to have to create a virulently pro-Solomani 
identity," O'Connor said abruptly. "It makes the most sense."
	"YOU?" He's lost what's left of his mind! "You HATE the Solomani!"
	"Precisely." O'Connor's artificial voice was as coldly efficient as 
ever. "My psych profile will be well-known to the Solomani Security people we 
may run into. It's vital that it be buried far deeper than any of yours, and 
covered by something that will deflect all suspicion." He paused. "Wolf 
Nyborg, I'll call him. Raised on Scaramouche, arrested for pro-Solomani 
terrorism and forced to enlist in the Imperial Marines as an alternative to 
jail. Nurtured a violently anti-Imperial attitude through his career, learned 
enough about killing to rebuild himself as a death machine, and cashiered."
He flexed a steel hand carefully. "I hope the cybergear they give me can match 
this stuff. What about you, Jaeger? You're going to be toughest to explain."
	"Not really. I have researched the Solomani political records in the 
region where we're going, and have selected a suitable world for my origins:
Hasdrubal, in the Kukulcan subsector. It's a charismatic oligarchy, the family
Tchorgin occupying a position of absolute power and commanding unswerving 
loyalty from the populace. Lord Mikhail Tchorgin of the Family Tchorgin, a 
gadabout and dilettante, was kidnapped by Hudson's crew in an attempt to get 
away from pursuing authorities. He fell in with his captors, and his aplomb, 
suave manner with the Solomani authorities, and skill as a negotiator led them 
to keep him on. In exchange for his aid, the crew abides by his behavior and 
gives him the treatment due a Tchorgin, namely respect and deference at all 
times, as befits one of noble birth--"
	That's enough. He's ready. Shut him down before he makes us all sick.
	Jaeger, or what once was Jaeger, slept.

	What is your name?
	Hmm. Infinite possibilities. Identities as easily shed as a suit of 
old clothes. If it works, of course, but I would be surprised if it didn't.
That fellow Cameron seemed quite confident-- of course, it isn't HIM in the
chair right now....
	What is your name?
	Oh, bother. It's THEM again. What do they want now?
	Can you hear me?
	This is quite amusing. All my lives, lined up like index cards, ready 
to be shuffled and read back at random. Buried original intellect, indeed! If 
they only knew....
	WHAT IS YOUR NAME!
	Ach, this is getting tedious. I suppose I should answer them, if only 
to shut them up. Let's see, now....
	I beg your pardon?
	Getting a response now, sir. We must have been off tune a bit.
	Excellent. Hello, can you hear me?
	Of course I can hear you, you fool. You're yelling in my ear!
	Ah. Hm. Allright, let's try it again. What is your name?
	Ah, tada, tada. Hmmmm. Clovis Cruikshank, Imperial News Network. 
Specialist in tawdry tales of slime and debauchery. You know the type? 
"Innocent Alien Girls Sold to Human Slavers For Houses of Sin," that sort of 
thing.
	WHA-AT? What the hell is he talking about!
	I don't know, Doctor. There's no "Cruikshank" in the profile!
	There isn't? Oh, dearie me. Well, how about Tibor Trench, Private Eye? 
Meanest, rattiest private dick what ever walked the streets of Cairo, hoping 
to score big on his next case....
	Trench? TRE-- Has he gone crufty on us?
	Um, no sir. No. I got a lock on that last name. Tibor Trench was a 
real PI all right; he was in the news a while back as being wanted by both the 
Imperium and the Solomani for smuggling. Crossreferencing-- ah! And Cruikshank 
was the name of the scandal sheet reporter who wrote about him selling slaves 
in one of the INN off-titles. He must've been reading the paper just before we 
came in, or something.
	Ah, that explains it.
	Hook, line and sinker. You fools!
	Did he say something?
	Negative, Doctor. Just random noise.
	Random noise? Don't you wish. Hurry it up, I'm growing bored....
	Let's try it again... What is your name?
	Sigh. Hristos von Newton. Or Doctor Christoph Fell. YOU pick one.
	WHAAAAT?!
	Good lord, sir, he must be balanced EXACTLY on the Threshold! We've
never gotten anyone to stabilize there before. We ought to study this while we 
can....
	No time. Give him another half point.
	....Done, sir.
	What is your name?
	Newton. Newton, Newton, Newton. Please go away.

	Memory access. Recent movements and time lapse since last conscious 
period. Repeating request. Repeating request. Respond. Respond!
	O'Connor frowned; something was very wrong. His internal time scale 
should have kept the time flawlessly while he was out. But now it wasn't 
answering at all.
	Run basic diagnostics. Run basic diagnostics. RUN--
	He gave up. There was no answer. All of the systems were shut down. 
Every last one of them. Whoever was working on him had to have been half 
cyberneticist, half brain surgeon. Fortunately he hadn't told anyone about his
internal backups. Just a few moments to activate them....
	What is your name?
	Daryavayush Michael O'Connor. Imperial Marines, Free Space Ops.
	Good, very good. Now relax. We're going to increase power.
	Increase power? To what? I don't like the sound of that! Let me get 
the backups going, so I can get the hell out of here! 
	He fumbled in the darkness for the backups. They weren't there.
	Oh my God, he realized, with sick horror, they've cut them off. 
LITERALLY CUT THEM OFF! My arms-- my, throat, my ear, my EYE-- my, my BRAIN--
	THEY'VE MUTILATED ME! 
	O'Connor screamed. He screamed and screamed, until the rising tide of 
blackness dissolved the screams into meaningless gibberings, then into static. 

	"Captain Hudson?"
	"Yo." Hudson's eyes flew open. He was lying on a couch in what smelled 
like a hospital ward. His head ached. He sat up, slowly and painfully. "Where 
am I?" He glared at the white-haired man standing by the bed. "Who're you?"
	"I'm J. J. Cameron, of Ling Standard Products," the man replied 
anxiously. "It was our comsat that hit your ship. This is terrible, terrible!"
	"Hit the--" Hudson remembered with a jolt. The crash! The Inexplicable 
had spun in, flailing like a harpooned daghadasi... dagha... Dag? 
	Hudson frowned. Dag?
	"Are you all right? You took a pretty hard hit to the head...."
	"I'm FINE!" Hudson threw himself angrily out of bed, and looked around 
for his clothes. They were lain neatly over a chair by the bed, and he threw 
them on, ignoring Cameron. "Where's my crew?"
	"Waiting for you outside. Please come with me." Cameron led Hudson out 
to the lounge, where four men were sitting and sipping at hot drinks, 
conversing in low tones. They got up hastily as Hudson entered.
	"Back among the living, eh, Cap'n?" Newton's voice had lost none of 
its usual sneer. 
	"Yeah, looks that way. Anyone seen the ship?"
	"I've looked it over extensively, Captain," Edison snapped. "It 
requires (1) minor repairs to forward landing struts (2) extensive stress 
check of Jump drive components (3) rehulling of port fuel tank section aft."
	"Lovely. Just damned LOVELY!" Hudson turned on Cameron with a snarl.
"Your corporation's paying for those repairs, mister."
	"Of course, of COURSE," Cameron soothed him. "We wouldn't THINK of not 
doing so. We're so terribly sorry about what happened...."
	Hudson ignored his plaintive bleatings, and looked hard at Nyborg, who 
was still sitting on the couch, head in hands.
	"Wolf? You all right?"
	Nyborg looked up at Hudson, then stood up. He rubbed his eyes, 
scratched one hand with the other and said, "My hands itch. Sir. And I've got 
a headache. And my eye hurts, the left one. And my ear, too. And I have a sore 
throat. And my mouth tastes like someone went to the bathroom in it. Otherwise 
I'm OK. Sir."
	"Bitch, bitch, bitch," Newton grinned. "You'll be fine, you louse."
	"Of course he will," Tchorgin said indignantly. "Stiff upper lip and 
all that, after all. We shall perservere; what does not kill us shall only 
serve to make us stronger."
	"Yeah, yeah, right," Hudson sighed. "Where's Tsogukh?"
	Edison began, "They were having some trouble with him--"
	"RRRRRAAAAAGGGHHHHHHHH!" The bellow of rage and pain split the air of 
the hallway. A door splintered open with a crack, and an orderly came flying 
out backwards into the hallway. After him came an apparition in a hospital 
gown, two-plus meters of tautly stretched, growling Vargr muscle, spotted
dirty brown and black, bandaged about the head. For the barest instant, Hudson
paused. That's not right, something inside him said. He was a LITTLE guy. 
	Wasn't he?
	"CAPTAIN!" Tsogukh roared. "WHERE THE FTAKHN ARE MY CLOTHES?"
	"Settle down, before you hurt someone," Hudson rapped out. "Your 
clothes ought to be right back in your room, you stupid furball."
	Tsogukh looked over his shoulder, turned and walked back into the 
room, and came out a moment later, zipping up his jumpsuit. "Sorry," he 
rumbled to the orderly, who was just getting up.
	"Okay, that's all of us," Hudson nodded. He turned to Cameron. "Take 
us to our ship!"
	"At once. Follow me, gentlebeings," Cameron said smoothly, leading the 
crew of the Inexplicable toward the exit. "And as we walk, let me explain a 
little job opening I have, for a crew that's not afraid of working the border
regions...."

TO BE CONTINUED


-------- TML Message #1983 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1983
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 90 10:23:10 -0500
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!tnc!m0068@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Designs from Scott Kellogg 12/10/90

From: m0068@tnc.UUCP (Stephen D Smith)
Organization: personal mailbox at The Next Challenge
 
*********************************************************
*********************************************************
Scott is in the processing of moving so his access is
even more limited. His previously given address and
phone will be of dubious use, depending on the US Snail.
Anyone wishing to contact him should leave a message
with me and I'll forward it to him.
*********************************************************
*********************************************************
 
Light Tanker TL11 "Cow" Class
 
CraftID:  Light Tanker, TL11, MCr 427.4227
Hull:     (891/2228) Disp=990, Config=4SL, Armor=40E,
          Unload=10678.95, Load=11398.4
Power:    (45/90) 3665.73 Mw, Dur=30/90 @ 1G, 14days @2G
Loco:     (45/90) Manuver=2G, (27/54) Jump=2, NOE=150,
          Cruise=750kph, Top=1000kph, Agility=0
Commo:    Radio=System*3, Maser=System*3
Sensors:  EMM, P-EMS=Interstel*3, A-EMS=FarOrb*1, Neutrino=1Gw*2,
          Densitometer=1m*2,
          ActObjScn=Rout    ActObjPin=Rout PasObjScn=Form 
          PasObjPin=Form PasEnScn=Rout  PasEnPin=Form
Off:      HPoints=10
          Missile=xx2
          Batt        1
          Bear        1
Def:      DefDM=+5
          SCaster=xx4
          Batt        9
          Bear        9
Control:  Computer=5/Fib*3, HUD*23, DynLink*23
Accom:    Crew=7(Command=1, Bridge=2, Eng=2, Gunner=2) Env=Basic
          Env, Basic is, Extend is, Inertial Comp, Grav Plate
Other:    Fuel=9820.65Kl,(7420Kl for distribution, sufficient for
          2 'Wolf' class carriers) Cargo=32Kl, PurePlant=24hr,
          Objsize=Lrg, EMlevel=Faint
 
Remarks:  Because of their small size, low cost and high fire power
'Wolf' class carriers are often called upon as commerce raiders. 
A problem with the 'Wolf' class carriers shown in operation is
their slow refueling and low jump capacity.  While their irregular
configuration allows them to launch their fighters rapidly, they
can not skim fuel.
 
    The 'Cow' class tankers were concieved as a supplement to
'Wolf' operations.  A 'Cow' can easily support two 'Wolves'.  More
often it is called upon to support more by making multiple fuel
runs.
 
    When performing as commerce raiders, a single 'Wolf' and 'Cow'
will typically travel alone conserving fuel as much as possible to
allow multiple jumps giving the two ships sufficient fuel to travel
a total of jump 3 without refueling.
 
    Ships in class include:  Holstein, Kou, Doe, Mare, Jersey,
Heifer, Nanny, Vixen, Manatee, Bitch, Hen and Goose
 
 
Tanker TL11 7-11 Series
 
CraftID:  Tanker, TL11, MCr 3778.176
Hull:     (8910/22275) Disp=9900, Config=4SL, Armor=40E,
          Unload=105894.4, Load=114050.6
Power:    (415/830) 37297.78 Mw, Dur=30/90 @ 1G, 14days @2G
Loco:     (446/892) Manuver=2G, (268/536) Jump=2, NOE=150,
          Cruise=750kph, Top=1000kph, Agility=0
Commo:    Radio=System*3, Maser=System*3
Sensors:  EMM, P-EMS=Interstel*3, A-EMS=FarOrb*1, Neutrino=1Gw*2,
          Densitometer=1m*2,
          ActObjScn=Rout    ActObjPin=Rout
          PasObjScn=Form    PasObjPin=Form
          PasEnScn=Rout     PasEnPin=Form
Off:      HPoints=99
          Missile=x02 Blaser=xx3
          Batt        4           1
          Bear        4           1
Def:      DefDM=+6
          SCaster=xx5
          Batt        47
          Bear        47
Control:  Computer=5/Fib*3, HUD*214, DynLink*214
Accom:    Crew=69(Command=9, Bridge=12, Eng=19, Gunner=24, Maint=3,
          Stew=2) Env=Basic Env, Basic is, Extend is, Inertial
          Comp, Grav Plate
Other:    Fuel=98275.66Kl,(74200Kl for distribution, sufficient for
          20 'Wolf' class carriers) Cargo=1277Kl, PurePlant=24hr,
          Objsize=Lrg, EMlevel=Faint
 
Remarks:  In order to use the heavy firepower of the 'Wolf'
carriers, they travel in large numbers.  Fleets of one hundred to
one thousand 'Wolves' are common.  These fleets are supported by
large numbers of '7-11' series tankers.
 
    Like the 'Wolf' carriers, the '7-11' tankers prefer to use
their emergency agility to their laser battery.  Normally, they
stay out of the fray and do not fight unless they can not run.
 
    Ships in class include:  Seven-Eleven, Gulf, Chevron, Mobil,
Shell, Merit, Exxon, Esso, Sunoco, Texaco, Amaco, Liberiya Maru,
Manaport, and BP
 
Scott Kellogg
 
    via  Stephen D Smith   USENET: m0068@tnc.UUCP
                           BIX: sdsmith
- - --Name = STEPHEN SMITH  Mailbox # = 68

-------- TML Message #1984 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1984
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 90 10:25:19 -0500
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!tnc!m0068@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Designs from Scott Kellogg 12/11/90

From: m0068@tnc.UUCP (Stephen D Smith)
Organization: personal mailbox at The Next Challenge
 
*********************************************************
*********************************************************
Scott is in the processing of moving so his access is
even more limited. His previously given address and
phone will be of dubious use, depending on the US Snail.
Anyone wishing to contact him should leave a message
with me and I'll forward it to him.
*********************************************************
*********************************************************
 
Light Intruder TL 15 "Fox" Class
 
CraftID:  Light Intruder Type LI, TL 15, MCr 528.1209
Hull:     (360/900) Disp=400 Config=1AF, Armor=40G,
          Unload=5480.682, Load=5676.819
Power:    (74/99) 13186.98 Mw Fusion, Dur=30 days @ low power (No
          fusion guns, Agility=0) or 10 days @ full power.
Loco:     (91/124) Manuver=6G, (27/36) Jump=4, Agility=6 NOE=190,
          Cruise=750kph, Top=1000kph,
Commo:    Radio=System*7, Maser=System*7, RadioJam=System
Sensors:  EMM, P-EMS=Interstell*3, A-EMS=FarOrb*3,
          Densitometer=250m*3, Neutrino=10kw*3, EMS-JAM=FarOrb
          ActObjScn=Rout    ActObjPin=Rout PasObjScn=Rout 
          PasObjPin=Rout PasEnScn=Simp  PasEnPin=Rout
Off:      HPoints=4   Missile=x04 FusionGun=x06
          Batt        1                   1
          Bear        1                   1
Def:      DefDM=+12
Control:  Computer=9fib*3, LrgHoloDisp=1, HoloHUD=3, HoloLink=7,
          Electronic Circuit Protect,
Accom:    Crew=4 (Bridge=2, Engineer=1, Gunner=1) Staterooms=4.5,
          Env=Basic Env, Basic is, Extend is, Inertial Comp, Grav
          Plate, Airlock*6
Other:    Fuel=2616Kl, Mag=18.6Kl, 34B-rds, B-rd=6missiles, Scoops,
          Fuel Pure=18hr, ObjSize=Avg, EMlevel=Faint (None at
          reduced power)
 
If black globe not installed, the craft has an additional magazine
of 135Kl containing (225B-rnds) and the 3 unused staterooms are
used for cargo and additional magazine storage with 150Kl available
(Those staterooms equiped with fold down furniture.)  Fittings
installed to mate with 6 other 400 ton ships simultaneously.
 
Remarks:  The 'Thunder Fox' class light intruder is the Imperial
Navy's equivalent of the attack sub.  They operate in wolf packs
of 6 intruders and a core intruder.  The core is identical to the
other intruders with the addition of a factor 1 black globe set to
enclose all 7 ships in the field when they are docked together. 
Together they have a configuration of 0SL.  What's it look like? 
Picture seven pencils tightly packed together...
 
 0 0
0 0 0
 0 0
 
History:  The best known engagements by the 'Thunder Fox' class
were the raids by Rainbow squadron under the command of Lt.
Catherine Dragoon (known as Black Cat), in the relief of
Jewell{Spinward Marches 1106} during the Fifth Frontier War.  The
Zhodani 10th fleet were orbiting the planet protecting their
beachhead on the minor northern continent.  Imperial SDB's and
other fleet elements from the 125th Imperial fleet were making
small raids on the 10th fleet.
 
    Rainbow squadron would power down to minimum and use long range
sensors to locate targets in orbit.  Then they drifted in with the
black globe up.  SDB's would continue to monitor the targets while
the squadron closed in.  Using Maser communicators locked on the
surface of the black globe the SDB's could continue to transmit
tactical information to the closing hunters.  With this
information, and by monitoring the light and gravitational energy
input from the black globe in conjuction with inertial navigation
the squadron knew the exact location of the enemy when they dropped
the screen, dispersed and opened fire.
 
    The Zhodani had no warning of these raids.  The raiders could
bring their reactors up to full power with no neutrino emmissions,
all being absorbed by the black globe.
 
    Without any warning, the Zhodani had no defences operating. 
They were sliced up by the quick and agile opponants.  When they
managed to start returning fire the raiders would quickly jump and
escape.
 
    The Zhodani were forced to keep defences powered and manned at
all times, forcing them to keep refueling at a furious rate.  This
put a large strain on their crews.
 
    The psionic officers were hardest hit.  The only way to locate
the squadron with its black globe up was with psionics and scanning
empty space at long range quickly exhausted them.  It is rumored
that many became dependant on psi-drugs from this mindbreaking
labor.  The pressure to find the raiders was heavy; Zhodani society
places strong obligation on psionic officers to protect their
crews.  But as their psi powers deteriorated, the pressure of the
raiders increased as Rainbow squadron got more experienced in the
operation.
 
    In mid 1108 the 'Rainbow Leader' recieved extensive damage. 
Lt. Dragoon transferred the black globe generator and her command
to the 'Rainbow Vixen' and continued the raids.  Slowly, Rainbow
squadron was being eroded as the individual ships took damage in
thier raids.  Eventually, after several transfers of command the
black globe was damaged beyond repair.  Lt. Dragoon then took her
last three ships and on 59-1109 broke the blockade out of system
and brought out the first indication to the rest of the Imperium
that Jewell continued to hold out.
 
    Lt. Cdr. Dragoon then returned to Jewell in command of
'Lightning' Squadron manned by the veterans of 'Rainbow' Squadron
where they continued their siege breaking efforts till the end of
the war.  Captain Dragoon was awarded the Starburst for Extreme
Heroism for her actions in the war.
 
Design:  The 'Thunder Fox' chief designer was John Kellison with
the assistance of a young Dr. Hloch.  Nevertheless, it is known for
the 'Hloch Touch' ie:  Strong emphisis on agility and simple
control systems such that the pilot need not be distracted by odd
positioning of controls.  The large holo display is only used by
the squadron commander and the black globe screen crew.  This was
the first project Dr. Hloch really got his talons into.  He was
strongly influenced by the exceptionally capable designer John
Kellison.
 
 
Light Intruder TL 15 "Thunder" Class
 
CraftID:  Light Intruder Type LI, TL 15, MCr 528.1209
Hull:     (360/900) Disp=400 Config=1AF, Armor=40G,
          Unload=5610.682, Load=5806.819
Power:    (74/99) 13186.98 Mw Fusion, Dur=30 days @ low power (No
          fusion guns, Agility=0) or 10 days @ full power
Loco:     (91/124) Manuver=6G, (27/36) Jump=4, Agility=6 NOE=190,
          Cruise=750kph, Top=1000kph,
Commo:    Radio=System*7, Maser=System*7, RadioJam=System
Sensors:  EMM, P-EMS=Interstell*3, A-EMS=FarOrb*3,
          Densitometer=250m*3, Neutrino=10kw*3, EMS-JAM=FarOrb
          ActObjScn=Rout    ActObjPin=Rout
          PasObjScn=Rout    PasObjPin=Rout
          PasEnScn=Simp     PasEnPin=Rout
Off:      HPoints=4   Missile=x04 FusionGun=x06
          Batt        1                   1
          Bear        1                   1
Def:      DefDM=+12 Black Globe-1
Control:  Computer=9fib*3, LrgHoloDisp=1, HoloHUD=3, HoloLink=7,
          Electronic Circuit Protect,
Accom:    Crew=9 (Command=1, Bridge=2, Engineer=1, Gunner=5)
          Staterooms=4.5, Env=Basic Env, Basic is, Extend is,
          Inertial Comp, Grav Plate, Airlock*6
Other:    Fuel=2616Kl, Mag=18.6Kl, 34B-rds, B-rd=6missiles, Scoops,
          Fuel Pure=18hr, ObjSize=Avg, EMlevel=Faint (None at
          reduced power)
 
Remarks:  Fuctions as squadron coordinator and houses the
squadron's black globe.
 
    The squadrons are named after the core.  Each ship therein
carries the name of the core as part of its own name the ships of
different squadrons have the same secondary name as well.
Thunder Leader        Rainbow Leader          Bright Squadron
Thunder Fox           Rainbow Fox             Light Squadron
Thunder Wolf          Rainbow Wolf            Lightning Squadron
Thunder Jackal        Etc.                    Flash Squadron
Thunder Vixen                                 Electric Squadron
Thunder Lynx          Fire Squadron           Donner Squadron
Thunder Tiger         Snow Squadron           Blitzen Squadron
 
Just to show what a dinosaur I am...
Light Intruder  LI-4146B91-000000-06004-0  Mcr 413.5  400 ton
Crew=7 TL=15 Fuel=204 Agility=6 EP=44   "Fox" class
 
Light Intruder  CF-4146B91-000010-06004-1  Mcr 813.5  400 ton
Crew=7 TL=15 Fuel=204 Agility=6 EP=44   "Thunder" class
 
Scott Kellogg
 
    via  Stephen D Smith   USENET: m0068@tnc.UUCP
                           BIX: sdsmith
- - --Name = STEPHEN SMITH  Mailbox # = 68

-------- TML Message #1985 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1985
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 90 10:26:46 -0500
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!tnc!m0068@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Designs from Scott Kellogg 12/12/90

From: m0068@tnc.UUCP (Stephen D Smith)
Organization: personal mailbox at The Next Challenge
 
*********************************************************
*********************************************************
Scott is in the processing of moving so his access is
even more limited. His previously given address and
phone will be of dubious use, depending on the US Snail.
Anyone wishing to contact him should leave a message
with me and I'll forward it to him.
*********************************************************
*********************************************************
 
Dreadnaught TL 15, "Tigress" Class
 
CraftID:  Dreadnaught Type BB, TL 15, MCr 665803.5
Hull:     (450000/1125000) Disp=500000 Config=5SL, Armor=85G,
          Unload=15243147, Load=15730390
Power:    (57484/76646) 10347030 Mw Fusion, Dur=30 @ low power (no
          offensive wpns except BLasers, Agility=0) Combat power
          consumes 2 days reduced fuel per day)
Loco:     (114750/153000), Manuver=6G, (33750/45000) Jump=4,
          Agility=1, NOE=190, Cruise=750kph, Top=1000kph,
Commo:    Radio=System*50, Maser=System*50, Meson=System,
          RadioJam=System
Sensors:  EMM, P-EMS=Interstel*3, A-EMS=FarOrb*3,
          Densitometer=1km*3, Neutrino=10kw*3, EMS-Jam=FarOrb*3
          ActObjScn=Rout          ActObjPin=Rout
          PasObjScn=Rout          PasObjPin=Rout
          PasEnScn=Simp           PasEnPin=Rout
Off:      HPoints=5000
          Meson Gun=T0x   Missile=x90     ParticleAcc=x70
          Batt        1           215               5
          Bear        1           430               10
          BLasers=x09 FGun=x06
          Batt        5           25
          Bear        10          50
Def:      DefDM=+8 Meson Scn-7, NucDamp-9,
          SCaster=x04       Repulsor=x09
          Batt        5           11
          Bear        10          22
Control:  Computer=9fib*3, LrgHoloDisp=138, HoloHUD=3042,
          HoloLink=3042, Electronic Circuit Protect
Accom:    Crew=3648 7*500 (Command=499, Bridge=120, Engineer=752,
          Gunner=68, Flight=900, Maintain=1157, Medic=30,
          Steward=122) Env=Basic Env, Basic is, Extend is, Inertial
          Comp, Grav Plate, Subcraft=50 ton*600, Launch Tube*3
Other:    Cargo=898.3, Magazine=364425Kl (341batt-rnds) Batt
          Rnd=10750 missiles, Fuel=3301636l, KScoops, Fuel
          Pure=72hr, Cargo=1030.8Kl ObjSize=Lrg, EMlevel=Mod
 
Remarks:  "Although some older battleships of greater displacement
remain in service, the 'Tigress' class dreadnaught is the largest
line-of-battle vessel currently in service with the Imperial Navy
in the Spinward Marches.  Each BatRon of 'Tigress' class vessels
is virtually a fleet unto itself, as each ship carries thirty
squadrons of heavy fighters (with ten FHs per squadron). A BatRon
of eight ships carries 2,400 heay fighters.
 
    At present, only one 'Tigress' class BatRon is deployed in the
Spinward Marches, assigned to the 212th Fleet, at Rhylanor. 
Additional 'Tigress' class BatRons  are generally assigned one per
sector.
 
    Deployment:  In war, the ideal deployment of any BatRon is
together, as a unit.  In peace, various 'Tigress'es are often
scattered throughout a region on peacekeeping missions, or to show
the flag.  Several individual 'Tigress'es have been deployed among
the worlds of the Five Sisters subsector to enforce the amber zone
blockade of Candory and Andor.
 
    Similarly, 'Pantheress' was dispatched (much to the chagrin of
the Zhodani government) to recieve the body of the Imperial
Ambassador to Chronor upon her assassination in 1104.  Given the
circumstances of her death, it was difficult for the Consulate to
object.  The ship's weaponry was ceremonially sealed, but that
would mean little in an actual fight.  Imperial newstapes treated
it as a propaganda coup for months.
 
    Construction:  The 'Tigress' class is produced using an armored
spherical hull with the single spinal meson gun mounted centrally. 
A large armored port protects the gun during non-combat operations;
the port itself contains the focussing equipment for the weapon
beam.
 
    Within the sphere, layered decks hold the various on-ship
functions such as quarters, computer and electronic equipment, fuel
treatment, and maintainance areas.  Appended to the back of the
sphere is a large heavy fighter launch and recovery installation. 
Fighters are launched to the rear, to starboard, and recovered from
the rear, to port; this arrangement prevents them from entering the
meson beam when it is in use, as well as providing some armored
bulk between the fighters and the enemy."
 
    -Supplement 9:  Fighting Ships
    Somebody was dispairing that the 'Tigress' class wasn't redone
for Shattered Ships of the Squabbling Imperium so I took a whack
at it.
 
Original High Guard Design by Tim Brown, Frank Chadwick & Marc
Miller
Reprinted without permission            (Hold your fire!)
 
Scott Kellogg
 
    via  Stephen D Smith   USENET: m0068@tnc.UUCP
                           BIX: sdsmith
 
- - --Name = STEPHEN SMITH  Mailbox # = 68

-------- TML Message #1986 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1986
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 90 10:28:17 -0500
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!tnc!m0068@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Designs from Scott Kellogg 12/13/90

From: m0068@tnc.UUCP (Stephen D Smith)
Organization: personal mailbox at The Next Challenge
 
*********************************************************
*********************************************************
Scott is in the processing of moving so his access is
even more limited. His previously given address and
phone will be of dubious use, depending on the US Snail.
Anyone wishing to contact him should leave a message
with me and I'll forward it to him.
*********************************************************
*********************************************************
 
Ballistic Missile Sub TL8 "Typhoon" Class "Red October" subclass
 
CraftID:  Ballistic Missile Submarine, Type SSBN, TL8, MCr
          1006.52445 (!*!Book version +52,000 Cr)
Hull:     (1800/4500) Disp=2000, Config=3AF, Armor=46C,
          Unload=19000.789t, Load=21600t, Dived=27000t,
          SafeDepth=430m, CrushDepth=645m
Power:    (20/26) (20/26) 392.5 Mw Fission*2, Dur=3yrs
Loco:     (40/53) (40/53) Twin Screw, DiveTop=48Kph,
          DiveCruise=36kph, Surface=37kph,
!*!Book   (39/52) Ducted Hydrojet, DiveTop=28kph, DiveCruise=21kph,
!*!Movie  (13/18) Magneto-Hydrodynamic, DiveTop=28kph,
          DiveCruise=21kph
Commo:    Radio=Cont*3, Reg*3, RadioJamm=Cont*3
Sensors:  Active Audio*3, Passive Audio*40, Magnetic Sensor*3,
          Radiation Sensor*10, Environmental Sensor*3,
          AllWeatherRADAR=Cont*3, RDF*3, Image Enhancement*1,
          Passive IR*1, AdvActive IR*1, Headlight*1, Video
          Camera*1, RadarJamm=Cont*3
          ActObjScn=Diff    ActObjPin=Diff ActAudScn=Form 
          ActAudPin=Form PasAudScn=Form PasAudPin=Form
          PasEngScn=Diff
Off:      533mm Torpedo Tubes*4
          650mm Torpedo Tubes*4
          Ballistic Missile Tubes*24
                                  Max
                Rnds  Warhead     Range Speed Hit%  Dia
Torpedo C       8     300kg 15km        92kph 65%   533mm
Torpedo C Nuc   2     20kton      15km        65kph       533mm
SS-N-15         2     15kton      37km        2100kph           
533mm
Type 65         8     500kg 100km 89Kph 65%   650mm
SS-N-16         4     Type E      93km        2100kph           
650mm
(Type E         -     150         8km         24kph 60%   450mm)
SS-N-20         24    9*300Kton   8300km                        
2.2m
 
The type C is a wire guided torpedo.
The SS-N-15 is a tube launched missile carried depth charge.
SS-N-15 Minimum range is 9km
The type 65 is a Wake homing torpedo with active sonar.
The SS-N-16 carries a Type E torpedo, SS-N-16 min range is 19km.
SS-N-20 is a MIRVed ballistic missile with up to 9 warheads.
 
Def:      DefDM=+2  Clusterguard Anechoic coating,
Control:  Computer=2fib*3, ElectronicLink=7391, Electronic Circuit
          Protect,
Accom:    Crew=150, SmallStateroom=25, Bunks=125, Env=Basic Env,
          Basic is, Extend is, AirLock*2
Other:    Fuel=3.14Kl Fissiles, 533mmMag=9Kl*2: 12 rnds,
          650mmMag=18Kl*2: 12 rnds, MissileMag=1440Kl: 24 rnds,
          Telescopicmasts*5, Electronic sensors mounted on masts,
          Cargo=921.4484Kl (!*!+260Kl in movie version),
          ObjSize=Lrg, EMlevel=Faint
 
Remarks:  If you haven't read the book, READ IT!  GOOD STUFF! 
Honest!  The above is meant to simulate either the book or movie
version.  Where differences come up I have noted them.  You have
your choice of either a ducted water jet, or a Magneto-Hydrodynamic
drive as the 'Caterpillar'.  For those who don't know about MHD,
essentually, it works by passing a current through a tube of water
running through the ship and using magnetic fields to move the now
'magnetic' water.  (Yes, I know that's not a very good explanation,
but that is my limited understanding of the process.)  Both drives
are much quieter than normal propellers.
 
    I threw this one together from Harpoon and "Modern Submarine
warfare"  along with George Herbert's design notes. (TML-V1:19?). 
For the different drives I used the following.
 
    I got the speeds from Harpoon and used George's formula for sub
speed to calculate that 195 Mw would produce the desired speeds.
 
    Ducted hydrojet:  I simply doubled the requirements for the
screws.
 
    For the MHD drive I took the weight, volume and cost of a tech
9 195Mw fusion plant and used that.
 
    For the 650mm Torpedo tubes, I used the following, .5MW, 6Kl,
12 tons, 2MCr.
 
    For the missile tubes I used .1MW, 60 tons, 80Kl, 10 MCr.
 
    The 'Typhoon' has two interior hulls, these divide the
powerplant and screw drives up.  The Torpedo rooms are similarly
divided with 2*533mm and 2*650mm per room.
 
    In the Traveller universe, the 'Typhoon' class sub represents
a formidible system defence boat @ TL 8.
 
Scott Kellogg
 
    via  Stephen D Smith   USENET: m0068@tnc.UUCP
                           BIX: sdsmith
- - --Name = STEPHEN SMITH  Mailbox # = 68

-------- TML Message #1987 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1987
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 90 10:52:05 -0500
Subject: Apologies to the TML
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!tnc!m0068@uunet.UU.NET (Stephen D Smith)
Subject: Apologies


To All TML'ers,
    Please forgive the multiple postings of Scott Kellogg's
designs. I realize some people are bothered by them, especially in
large amounts. I'm leaving for Xmas vacation soon, and wanted to
get all of his stuff to the TML before I leave, and since Scott has
moved recently, (maybe out of my local area soon), there will
probably be fewer postings from Scott in the future.
 
          Stephen D Smith   USENET: m0068@tnc.UUCP
                            BIX: sdsmith
- - --Name = STEPHEN SMITH  Mailbox # = 68

-------- End of TML Messages --------

